The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the Minister for Climate Change

Good afternoon, and welcome to this Plenary meeting. The first item will be questions to the Minister for Climate Change this afternoon. The first question is from Mark Isherwood.

20 mph Speed Limits

Mark Isherwood AC: 1. What policy analysis did the Welsh Government undertake before implementing the 20 mph speed limits? OQ59961

Lee Waters AC: Thanks for the question. The policy was four years in the making. We've examined international evidence, benefited from the work of an expert taskforce, and trialled the policy in eight areas ahead of a national roll-out. We estimate that the policy could result, every year, in six to 10 lives being saved.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you. Well, the Welsh Government has stated previously both that local authorities have the discretion to change the 20 mph limit and that, in Spain, where they have 20 mph as their default position, urban deaths and road accidents have fallen by 20 per cent, and the number of cyclists killed in road traffic accidents has been reduced by 34 per cent. How do you therefore respond to the Flintshire county councillor representing part of your Buckley 20 mph pilot area, who wrote last week, stating,
'Unfortunately, Welsh Government don't appear to have learnt any lessons from the pilot. The powers given to authorities are not clear, and making a case why the road should be excluded is difficult for our council officers'?
And, noting that Spain had more road deaths per million inhabitants than the UK in 2022, how do you respond to the statement by the Spanish Interior Minister in January, comparing the figures for 2022 with 2019—the last pre-pandemic year without mobility restrictions there—that 2022 represented more deaths than in 2019, and, quote,
'When it comes to cyclists, the number of fatalities also increased'?

Lee Waters AC: Well, in terms of the pilot we ran in Flintshire, the whole point of a pilot is to try things, and part of trying involves failing and learning from the failure, and I don't see any problem with that. In fact, that's the whole point of doing it. Now, we decided in different settlements to trial different approaches. So, in some areas, we trialled monitoring, in some, we trialled enforcement. In the case of Buckley, we decided to trial the exceptions procedure. Now, there was a debate about whether or not we should allow some exceptions within Buckley as part of that trial, or to take an area-wide approach, and it was decided, for the purposes of testing that approach, to take an area-wide approach. Now, I think that Buckley has shown that an area-wide approach does not work, and the exceptions procedure is best used, particularly for communities like Buckley, where part of the road goes through almost a semi-rural area, where there aren't any houses, and another through Liverpool Road, through far more dense population. So, it's a really tricky example—we probably couldn't have chosen a more difficult area to pilot the exceptions, frankly.
We also had some real difficulties with the local authority, who were very nervous about moving away from the strict letter of the guidance, because they have had a number of legal challenges from retired highway officers, and they wanted to make sure that there was no room for further challenge on their part. Now, I'm pleased to say that, as a result of the whole process of working with them closely, we have given them confidence to apply a number of exceptions through Buckley that the pilot project showed us were worth while. I'm disappointed they haven't felt able to apply their own process themselves through the rest of Flintshire, and they still require, I think, some confidence about the extent to which they might be liable to legal challenge in the event of a collision. And that's one of the issues we now need to work through in the next stage. But it's not the case that they're not able to apply exceptions, because, if they had, how could they have applied the ones they have applied in Buckley?

Urban Tree Planting

Sam Rowlands AS: 2. What work is the Welsh Government doing to promote urban tree planting? OQ59972

Julie James AC: The Welsh Government continues to encourage and support urban tree planting. The My Tree, Our Forest campaign offered a tree for every household in Wales. Other schemes in urban areas include the Coetiroedd Bach scheme and Local Places for Nature, which continue to fund hundreds of community tree-planting projects.

Sam Rowlands AS: Thank you for your response, Minister. Firstly, I'd just like to take a moment to plug Wales's only entry in the Woodland Trust's Tree of the Year 2023 competition. It's a 484-year-old sweet chestnut tree in Wrexham's Acton Park. I'm delighted the team from Wrexham is looking to promote this tree, so I would encourage anybody to get on the Woodland Trust website and vote for that tree in Acton Park.
Minister, you of course know that trees being planted in the right places make such a difference to our communities. They've certainly been proven, in urban areas in particular, to improve physical and mental health and well-being, reduce noise, improve air quality—so many benefits of having trees planted in our urban areas. And I know, Minister, you would agree that local government has an important role to play in ensuring this takes place. I know, with my previous hat on, there was a project in Conwy that saw new trees planted across Llandudno, Colwyn Bay, Abergele, Kinmel Bay and Towyn, for all those good reasons and benefits that we're aware of. So, I'd be interested to know, Minister, if you have any plans in place at the moment, in working with local authorities in Wales, to ensure that they are looking to plant those trees in our urban towns and city centres across Wales. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Julie James AC: Yes, thank you, Sam, I'm very happy to—. I didn't realise we had a Welsh entry this year, and now that I do, I will be very happy to back it. I'm very keen on the Tree of the Year campaign, actually, because one of the points of it is to make people aware of what a tree can do for your neighbourhood. And even a single tree of that sort, especially a beautiful old specimen tree, as they're called, is a whole biodiverse ecosystem all by itself. So, it's really important to do that.
Now, we're really, really keen to include urban trees and urban planting schemes in our national forest for Wales plans, and we have woodland liaison officers working with urban projects, including local authorities, right across Wales, to bring the urban trees into the national forest. We want people to understand that the forest consists of single trees in urban environments, as well as planted, bigger schemes, and, of course, we have the Tiny Forests programme as well, where we're looking to bring a whole biodiverse forest that is the size of a couple of tennis courts, with six different species in it, into urban environments, so that people can understand what that brings to an ecosystem.
So, I couldn't agree more. I know you're very enthusiastic about it, and it was a pleasure to work with you before, and we are definitely working with our local authorities. And the only other thing I would say, Llywydd, in both urban and rural environments, is to just encourage people to let the trees in our hedgegrows grow, to turn them into trees—there is no real need to cut them off. Sometimes, along the highway, there's a need to stop overhanging branches so that we can avoid collisions, but, mostly, they can be allowed to grow. And those trees count very much towards our biodiverse goals as well.

Carolyn Thomas AS: I introduced the council's urban tree woodland strategy at Flintshire. It's a 15-year-old plan, and, I must say, in partnership with the Welsh Government's policies and funding, biodiversity officers have been retained there, and the planting of trees as well as wildflower meadows have continued. We called trees 'nature's health service', because the benefit is unbelievable for physical and mental health. They create canopy ecosystems, intercept rainfall, moderate air temperatures and reduce flooding, so the benefits are just unbelievable.
A Wrexham study estimated that the annual ecosystem benefits that the town's urban trees provide is £1.44 million, and, in financial terms, the benefits are immense. Minister, I hope that, when you're looking at the financial constraints, biodiversity and the planting of trees and wildflower meadows will remain a priority, and that, also, developers will be encouraged, when doing any engineering works in town centres, to make sure they plant trees as well. Thank you.

Julie James AC: Yes, I'm very happy to endorse all of those, and I'm very grateful for your work as well on the 'edges'scheme, so we can get as many edges to be mown as infrequently as we can manage, and with local wildflowers as well. It's actually very important that they're native wildflowers too, so that they self-seed, and that they feed our pollinator population, because, obviously, they're adapted to use local wildflowers. And that's the same with trees. So, trees produce enormous amounts of food for our insects, and, without our insects, we cannot have the birds that we're all so fond of. So, I won't be able to quote this accurately, Llywydd, but a single pair of swallows eats tens of thousands of insects. So, if you think about how many insects you need to have good environments to live in, if you want swallows and swifts in your urban environment, then you see how important it is to make sure that the trees that provide those habitats are protected and enhanced.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Prynhawn da, Minister. Wylfa and Trawsfynydd are two key sites for nuclear projects in Wales. Now, we know the UK needs four times as much clean power as we have now to hit net zero by 2050, and nuclear energy at both Trawsfynydd and Wylfa are ideally placed to be at the heart of a massive nuclear revival here in Wales. In the face of such Plaid Cymru negativity about nuclear, I am proud of the championing and leadership of Virginia CrosbieMP, in her efforts to bring jobs to Wylfa, and considerably more well-paid jobs.So, Minister, how is your Welsh Government working with the UK Government and Great British Nuclear to ensure that we see more investment in new nuclear power, especially at Wylfa and Trawsfynydd?

Julie James AC: Well, Llywydd, this is actually my colleague the Minister for Economy’s portfolio, but, nevertheless, we are working very hard indeed to make sure that in particular small and medium-sized nuclear reactors can be sited at various points. Trawsfynydd is one of them. I had the real pleasure of visiting that site to look at both the decommissioning works that are there and the potential for small nuclear—we’re very keen on promoting that.
In terms of Wylfa, the reason it's in the Minister for Economy’s portfolio and not mine is because it’s obviously an enormous inward investment project. Also, Janet, I don’t share your sanguinity about this. We could have had that project up and running by now if we’d had any kind of either industrial or decent investment strategy.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: So, correct me if I'm wrong, however, you are the Minister for Climate Change and the environment and we know that all projects for renewable energy of any type do fall under you. So, I would expect you to be briefed on Wylfa. So, it is essential that we have enough clean baseload power across Wales to ensure energy security and as a deterrent against fuel poverty. Nuclear energy provides the lowest carbon emissions, with 24-hour energy available. In fact, Wylfa, at the time, generated energy for 1.1 million homes over 44 years. Both you and I know that grid capacity is a barrier to many clean energy projects being delivered and we also know that Trawsfynydd had exceptional access to grid capacity and would be a great base for small modular reactors. So, what steps are you taking to highlight this to the UK Government to ensure that nuclear development is undertaken at this site as soon as possible?

Julie James AC: Right, well, I have to say, Janet, I don’t really think I should give you a lesson in how to discover which Minister is responsible for what, but they are published on the website and you can look it up.
However, of course I understand what’s happening at Wylfa. It’s an inward investment project. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but we're not currently generating any electricity, which is why it’s not in my portfolio. And so, the answer to your question is of course we talk to the UK Government about the grid; we talk to the Minister until we’re blue in the face about the grid. However, we have yet to see a single penny of investment in encouraging the grid into mid Wales or indeed across north Wales or indeed the upgrading that we need in south Wales to get the Celtic sea. So, if you want to add your voice to mine on that, please feel free.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: With all due respect, Minister, this tells me that you’re not really interested in nuclear because you’re passing it off as being in someone else’s brief—

Julie James AC: Honestly, Llywydd. This is not my portfolio.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: No, Llywydd, she's saying it's not her portfolio. At the end of the day, this is the Minister responsible for climate change, the environment. We are talking about the environment, we're talking about carbon zero, so I would expect a more courteous reply and for her to actually address the concerns that many raise with me.
Now, it can take 14 years to build new grid infrastructure. There are enough projects in the UK waiting to be connected to generate over half our future electricity needs. The UK Government is tackling the problem head on through the Chancellor and the Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero, bringing forward comprehensive new reforms to energy infrastructure. So, what representation have you made already, because we had some slight information lapses during some of the last questions when you were on your feet, Minister, where one minute you were saying that UK Government doesn't engage with you, and then the next minute, in response to Huw Irranca, you apologised and said that that dialogue—

Julie James AC: Okay, Llywydd, I did no such thing. I have twice told her—

You'll get your chance to respond now. And you need to come to your final question.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I am, Llywydd. What representations are you or will you be making to the UK Government to ensure the reforms that we need to deliver the new grid capacity—that we have them here in Wales?

Julie James AC: So, just to say, Janet, I apologised to Huw Irranca-Davies for not bringing forward a legislative consent motion in the time that he wanted me to. I made no apology for what I said about the UK Government. You can check the Record as I have. And if you really want me to report you for continuing to say something that's not true, you keep it up. I said no such thing.
The UK Government and I have had many meetings. I have seen several Ministers off. They don't stay in post long enough to actually understand what's happening with the grid. I've had many meetings with UK Government Ministers on this. I've had many meetings with the National Grid on this, including one only a couple of weeks ago where we discussed the paucity of grid rid right across Wales and what that project might look like. We are fully involved in the holistic network design and electricity network operator processes, and I've met with the distribution system operators. So, I have done plenty here. What has not happened is that the UK Government has put any investment strategy at all in to back its numerous empty promises.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell AC: Minister, remaining within the 1.5 degrees or even 2 degrees thresholds that are set out in the Paris agreement to avoid catastrophic climate change—that requires substantial emissions reduction now. But today we've heard that the UK's largest untapped oilfield has been approved by regulators, an oilfield that could produce 200 million tonnes of carbon dioxide. It is a decision that has been welcomed by the UK Government, but the consequences of inaction in the face of climate catastrophe are too dire for us to ignore. The urgency of curbing fossil fuel emissions and peaking by no later than 2025, if we hope to limit global warming to 1.5 degrees—that's never been more important. So, Minister, I'd ask you, given that the UK Government seems intent on throwing us off course on our journey to net zero by 2050, do you agree that Wales must now move more quickly to reach net zero before 2050?

Julie James AC: Yes, the decision on that oilfield is very alarming indeed, and the idea that it's something to do with energy security is put the lie to when you realise that the company that's exploiting it is actually the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund, and nothing to do with Britain. That oil will be sold into international markets. It does not increase our security in any way. It's an absolute fallacy that getting more oil out of the ground somehow increases energy security here. It just simply locks us into very expensive international prices for oil and gas. So, I had a very heavy heart when I heard that announcement. This is the same Government, of course, that says it wants to do net zero, but at the beginning of the Conference of the Parties biodiversity summit last year announced the opening of a new coal mine. So, they say one thing and do something quite different.
We have, as I think you know, Delyth, as part of the co-operation agreement, a taskforce looking into whether we can accelerate net zero, and I'm very much looking forward to their report. The designated Member and myself have a meeting next week. They've already announced several plans for action, and we really hope that they will produce us a viable and practical solution to accelerating our own course.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you for that, Minister. Of course, this comes as the Prime Minister and his Government continue to renege on absolutely vital policies to combat climate catastrophe, and again I use that word 'catastrophe’' because that is what's facing us. I've raised this before—I'm worried about how net zero seems increasingly to be becoming election fodder, a means of drawing clear water between the two UK parties. I'm not accusing your Government of that in any way, Minister, but on a UK level, in the run-up to the general election, looking to what Government will be in power after that election, UK Labour has stated it doesn't plan to bring back the 2026 deadline for beginning the phase-out of all gas boilers. And while they have said they won't grant new licences for oil and gas exploration, I understand today UK Labour have stated they wouldn't revoke the Rosebank licence if they win the next election—[Interruption.] I don't think it is good. Do you agree with that decision? I'm guessing that you probably won't. Is there anything that the Welsh Government can do to influence and to try and get them to change their minds?

Julie James AC: So, we do try very hard to influence the UK Government, of whatever stripe, in order to reach our mutual goals to reach net zero by 2050. Obviously, they are statutory goals, so we are currently exploring whether our own statutory goals are affected by what's happened at UK Government level. We would do that with any Government of any stripe because, actually, we're co-dependent. We need the UK Government to do the things it has set out in its net-zero pathway in order for us to be able to do the things that we can do. So, we're very concerned about that, and we are taking some advice about whether there's anything we can do with that.
I can't comment on whether or not you could or couldn't revoke the licences, because I, frankly, don't know enough about the legals or how that works or anything else. It may be that they're written in such a way that that's not possible. I just simply don't know. But I can tell you, absolutely honestly, that I was really, really depressed at hearing that announcement, because it just puts the UK, once again, back in the role of someone who’s the dirty man of Europe, not a world leader at all, and just absolutely determined to exploit the world's natural resources, and, frankly, mortgage the souls of our children and grandchildren.

Tree Cover Across Wales

Ken Skates AC: 3. What is the Welsh Government doing to increase tree cover across Wales? OQ59956

Julie James AC: The Welsh Government is supporting the planting of 43,000 hectares of new woodland by 2030. We will do this via the woodland creation offer launched last year, increasing tree cover on farms through the sustainable farming scheme, and our national forest will create a network of woodlands throughout Wales.

Ken Skates AC: Well, thank you, Minister. Extensive work is being conducted by an expert group on the wood panel industry, which included representatives from the Scottish, UK and Welsh Parliaments, and recommendations on how to increase tree planting for industrial use have been outlined in that report. I'd be incredibly grateful for the Welsh Government's observations on those recommendations, and perhaps for a discussion on how the future work of the group can assist the Welsh Government's excellent ambitions for increasing tree cover across Wales.

Julie James AC: Thank you very much, Ken, for sending me the report, which I was very interested to look at. The wood panel sector, as you say, positively contributes towards net zero, and locks up carbon in long-term use products. I know that you know this because I work with you very closely, and I bang on about it all the time, but I very much want to see Welsh wood used in the construction of housing and to encourage more trees to be planted as a crop so that they can meet the growing need for sustainable, low-carbon building products that don't come from extractive industry or depend on non-renewable sources. We will be bringing forward an industrial strategy for trees. Also, we are very clear that a productive woodland—well, woodland designed as a crop—is still part of the national forest; it still plays a role in the national forest, and people need to understand that some trees are there as crops, but they play their role in the carbon sink that we need to create for the world.

Samuel Kurtz AS: Minister, farmers manage approximately 80 per cent of Wales's land, playing an irreplaceable role in safeguarding and protecting our national countryside. Therefore, the agricultural industry is uniquely placed, and I see you nodding along, as an emissions sink with unique potential and a key role in tackling climate change whilst also providing food security. And, absolutely, trees play a vital role in this, and it must be the right tree, in the right place, for the right reason. However, we have seen land prices artificially inflated by multinationals purchasing Welsh agricultural farmland above market value for greenwashing, offsetting their conscience, rather than their carbon, and being supported by taxpayers' money to do so. So, given that we know that the interim Habitat Wales scheme, which replaces Glastir and the Glastir woodland creation scheme from January, will be a smaller pot of money, what discussions have you had as a Minister with your Cabinet colleagues, including the rural affairs Minister, to ensure that what funding is available is targeted directly to farmers, and isn't accessible for multinational companies? Diolch, Llywydd.

Julie James AC: So, obviously, that's very much part of the discussion that we do have. If you have an example of that, I'd very much like to see it, because we're always told that these exist, and I've not yet found one. So, if you want to send me that, please, in a letter, I'd be very grateful for that.
What we do have often in Wales is agricultural land changing hands because a large part of our farmland is tenanted, so the holding companies look like multinationals, but, actually, they're using it as an asset base. Now, I don't personally approve of that either, but it's not the same thing as purchasing the land in order to increase tree cover. We do not fund schemes where agricultural land that should be used for food is used to blanket tree cover. We do have schemes to allow tree cover to be put into land in Wales, but they have very strict rules around the number of species and where they can be planted. Quite clearly, we also have a programme for restoring peatland, for example. We don't want trees planted on our peatland, especially the peatland we've worked hard to restore.
What we want is for people to do, as I was just discussing earlier with Carolyn and Sam—we want people to allow the trees that exist already in the hedgerows to grow, to actually turn into full trees, and to stop the kind of tidying of them that we see, and we're asking farmers to consider planting another row of trees alongside that in order to give a better corridor along. That covers, for most farms, 10 per cent of the land. So, obviously, we'll work with farmers. Some farms won't be suitable for that; other farms will be suitable for really productive crops of timber, which I've just been talking about with Ken Skates, which is a vital part of what we want to do in Wales. So, it is, you're absolutely right, the right tree, in the right place, for the right purpose as well. So, some of those trees will be there for generations to come as biodiverse reservoirs, but others will be crops,and the farmers can make an income from that as well as from food production. So, this is about making sure that we shepherd the land in the right way, for the right sort of production, in the right place. And I couldn't agree with you more, that we can't do that without our farmers.

The A494 Trunk Road

Darren Millar AC: 4. Will the Minister make a statement on road safety on the A494 trunk road in Pwllglas? OQ59965

Lee Waters AC: Yes. Thank you. We take road safety very seriously and regularly review police collision data to inform the need for additional measures. We are currently updating the 'Setting Local Speed Limits in Wales' guidance and will review the speed limits across the trunk road network, following publication of the updated guidance.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you for that answer, Deputy Minister. You'll know that I've had some correspondence with you on this matter over quite a long period of time now, and that the village of Pwllglas is going to benefit from a new fun and fitness park on one side of the trunk road, where all of the residents effectively live on the other side of the trunk road, alongside the local community centre, the village shop and a local nursery. Now, clearly, access to the new facilities is important for villagers, and they have asked if a crossing, ideally, could be installed on the trunk road, and failing that, if a reduction in the speed limit could be achieved from the current 40 mph to 30 mph. I appreciate that work is ongoing to review the national guidance, but, clearly, it's going to take quite some time before all of the roads across the trunk road network are actually reviewed. Can I request that you intervene in order to require your officials to undertake an assessment of the road safety in this village as soon as possible, so that people can enjoy the benefits of this new facility without being concerned about road safety?

Lee Waters AC: Thanks. Well, I'm very sympathetic to what the Member says, and as he mentions, we've had correspondence, and I've already agreed to carry out a pedestrian assessment at Pwllglas. I'm afraid, because of austerity pressures, we don't have funding in this financial year to be able to do it, but we will do it as soon as we are able to find the resource.
This is obviously a very familiar argument about what the best speed limit should be where people and traffic mix. Outside play areas and where people live, obviously in urban areas, where the speed limit is currently 30 mph, those will default to 20 mph, precisely for the reasons that the Member sets out, which is why I'm slightly puzzled by the dogmatic attitude his party is taking on the issue of speed limits. In this case, of course, it's a trunk road, where the speed limit is currently 40 mph, and that, therefore, wasn't covered by the process to look at speed limits. Now, we are looking, therefore, at the guidance, because currently the guidance suggests, unless there are levels of casualties, we aren't able to change the speed limit. And I've had letters from a number of Members in this Chamber, including a number of his colleagues, asking me to look at cases in rural areas where roads pass through villages, and it should be lower. So, that's what we are doing. We want to bring it in line with our broader road safety and transport strategy, and I would expect to see, in cases like this, the speed limit to be able to come down.
Can I just point out to him that when I've said that we are doing this and we are reviewing speed limits for this purpose, the Conservative transport spokesperson has said,
'Labour will continue to wage this socialist, anti-worker, anti-road and anti-motorist agenda, causing damage to the Welsh economy and removing people's freedom to drive their cars',
because we want lower speed limits where children play? Now, I think there's a complete hypocrisy on the benches opposite of when they decide they want to support speed limits and when they don't. So, we are going to update the guidance, as he's asked me, but when I mentioned that on an interview recently, the Conservatives decided this was the latest culture war they could ride and started their screaming campaign of how this was a next agenda I had at anti-motorists. All I'm doing is what he's asking me to do, so perhaps they would rethink their position to avoid hypocrisy.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I too support calls to improve pedestrian and cyclist safety in the Pwllglas area, particularly those who are eager to use the new playing area—[Interruption.]

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. A Member is contributing virtually and cannot be heard when there is too much noise in the Chamber, so if we can listen to Llyr Gruffydd.

Carry on, Llyr.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you, Llywydd. I too support the improvement of pedestrian safety in Pwllglas. Clearly, the new playing area is going to attract people, but not just those from the village. I know from experience that children, and young people in particular, are travelling from nearby communities to use this new resource—places such as Llanfair Dyffryn Clwyd and Ruthin itself. And the road into Pwllglas from the north, the A494, is very narrow, it has several turns in it, there's no pavement, it's very dangerous to cycle on it. So, can I ask the Government to look at safety beyond Pwllglas itself and look at improving the safety measures, be that road signage or even investigating the possibilities in terms of cycling and walking routes across the old railway, for example, to safeguard against accidents? Because, as it appears at the moment, it's only a matter of time until somebody has a serious accident on that route.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you for the question and I'm sure Llyr Gruffydd, like many Members here, have a great number of concerns raised by constituents about the speed of cars and the danger traffic poses to pedestrians. It certainly has historically been one of the biggest issues constituents have raised with me, and that is the reason why we are, with the support of many parties in this Chamber, reducing the speed limit in built-up areas. And on those roads outside of the current 30 mph, we are looking, as I said, at the guidance that we can issue to go alongside it. We're also later this year going to be consulting on a new road safety strategy for Wales, because the current version has lapsed, and we'll be bringing speed limits in line with our other policies and our Wales transport strategy. As the Member knows, we are investing heavily in safe routes for walking and cycling away from roads as part of our active travel investment. So, I think we are doing a great deal on this agenda, and I'm grateful for his support and his party's support for the action that we are taking.

Wales's Canal Network

Jayne Bryant AC: 5. What measures is the Welsh Government taking to protect and enhance Wales’s canal network? OQ59985

Julie James AC: Canals contribute to the economic, social, environmental and cultural well-being of Wales. Whilst canals are non-devolved, the Welsh Government has funded projects to enhance the network. These include supporting biodiversity and other environmental enhancements along the Montgomery canal, as well as active travel routes along the Swansea canal.

Jayne Bryant AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. Our canal network is a critical part of our national infrastructure. Canals bring the benefits of green spaces and nature corridors into urban areas, reaching thousands of people for whom access to nature is at a premium. They create wildlife corridors, contribute to flood defences and drainage and transfer water to support public water supply. In my constituency in Newport West, the Monmouthshire and Brecon canal has served residents since being built in 1799. Initially for industry, it now is a sanctuary for walkers and nature lovers, with the wonderful Fourteen Locks Canal Centre in Rogerstone providing an excellent base for visitors.
Our canals are an asset to be cherished, but the recent long-term funding settlement by the UK Government for the Canal & River Trust, which includes Glandŵr Cymru, represents almost a halving of real-terms public funding for canals compared with recent years. According to the trust, it will lead to a decline in the condition of the canal network and the alarming prospect of canal closures. Minister, what conversations are you having with Westminster on the impact of this decision, and what can the Welsh Government do to protect our canals and ensure that our canals remain the asset that they are?

Julie James AC: Yes, diolch, Jayne Bryant, for that question. As you've just said, the UK Government has taken a decision to change the funding model for the Canal & River Trust, and moves from a 15-year period to a 10-year period, with annual downwards tapers. I'm sure you know all of this, but it was set up in 2012 and the UK Government agreed to provide around £740 million through a 15-year grant as the charity established itself. It was always the case that they were expected to gradually reduce the reliance on public funding, but it was over 15 years, and that's been reduced. During 2022-23, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs carried out a review of its grants to inform the position. We contributed to the early stages of that review and highlighted the important role the canal network has in all areas—all the ones you've just mentioned; outdoor recreation, active travel, tourism and biodiversity being high up there.
So, they've announced that it will reduce each year. They think that the reduction can be matched by increases in other funding, such as water transfer charges, boating and mooring charges and other income, but I'm afraid we've highlighted a number of risks as a result of the reduction in funding, and we fear closure of some parts of the network, including some active travel routes, a negative impact on biodiversity if the canal can't be kept free running, because it's the free running of the water that contributes very much to that, and obligations for historic grants for assets to be maintained and to provide public benefit coming into play if the trust can't produce enough money in order to meet its obligations, and then, as a result of that, the reduced maintenance of listed assets.
So, it's very concerning indeed that this has happened, and we are very keen to preserve our canal network, and indeed to extend it, as we still hope we will be able to do. We have some lines in 'Planning Policy Wales' that set out policy considerations for canals and inland waterways, and, basically, in summary, it says that planning authorities should seek to promote the use of inland waterways by the protection of or provision of access to them. That's with a view to making sure that communities can access the waterways, and indeed make use of them. And also it's very obvious that, in the last 10 years, people have had a very different view of canals and rivers. So, it wasn't uncommon at all 15 years ago for housing estates to be built with their back to a river, and a wall built in between. Now it's very obvious that it enhances the value of the land if you turn it around and make it look at the river. I don't know, Jayne Bryant, if you've had a chance to do this, but, if you get a chance to look at the Lee valley on the Olympic park in London, and what happened when the Canal & River Trust was able to influence how they pursued the inland waterways of that site, and what it has done for the community locally, then it's well worth looking at. So, it's a real false economy once more from the Conservatives to do this for an asset that is both a heritage asset and a huge investment in biodiversity.

Russell George AC: Minister, of course one way the Welsh Government can help to enhance Wales's canal network is by continuing to support work in terms of the restoration of the Montgomery canal, which you referred to in your earlier answer. Now, you'll be aware of the significant UK Government levelling-up funding that has been awarded to secure this project, and I certainly believe that the canal restoration in Montgomeryshire will be of huge benefit to improving the tourism offer, as well as helping in levering in that private sector funding as well. Now, I very much hope, Minister, that, through the mid Wales growth deal, additional funding can be levered in as well, because this is a key project within the mid Wales growth deal, which I know is a partnership, of course, between the Welsh and the UK Governments. So, Minister, I would like your support in principle for additional support through the mid Wales growth deal to support the final elements of the restoration of the Montgomeryshire canal, as I'm sure you'll very much agree with me that this is a very important strategic regeneration project for mid Wales.

Julie James AC: Yes, I do very much agree that it's an important regeneration and strategic project. As I was just saying in response to Jayne Bryant, it's very obvious it has a dramatic effect on land values, for example, and it's very definitely an increased tourism offer, both, actually, for use of the towpaths as well as the actual boating, and we're very much in favour of that. I can't comment on the finances of the mid Wales growth deal—that's in my colleague's portfolio—but we are as a Government supportive of the mid Wales growth deal, and very keen to ensure that historic assets of this sort are enhanced.

Biodiversity

Altaf Hussain AS: 6. How does the Welsh Government balance the need for development against its commitment to protect and enhance biodiversity? OQ59977

Julie James AC: The Welsh Government balances the need for development with our commitment to protect and enhance biodiversity through the implementation of our terrestrial and marine planning policies. These provide a framework to ensure our natural resources are used in a way and at a rate that maintains and enhances ecosystem resilience.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you, Minister. I have been dealing with concerned residents at two potential developments, one a solar farm and the other a housing development. Both sites have one thing in common, however—they are both havens for wildlife. Both sites sustain a range of rare flora and fauna and both are threatened by development. Glais, which is home to rare birds and butterflies, could be destroyed to meet our energy needs, and Clyne Common, which is home to many rare plants and insect species, is to be paved over to accommodate the need for affordable housing. Minister, we have a nature emergency, so why are we allowing the destruction of natural habitats to meet short-term energy or housing targets? Surely there are plenty of brownfield sites around to allow developments to go ahead while at the same time protecting our biodiversity. Thank you.

Julie James AC: Well, I'm very pleased to see the Member championing biodiversity over development. That's certainly not something the Government of the same colour as him is doing the other side of the border. Here in Wales we have a plan-led system. I obviously can't comment on individual sites or planning applications for obvious reasons, but any development that comes forward must comply with 'Planning Policy Wales', it must comply with the provisions set out in the LDP, and all of those have sustainable development absolutely at their core. So, as long as the planning authorities are correctly implementing the plans and correctly implementing 'Planning Policy Wales', then we have an enormous amount of protection and enhancement, so that we do get the right balance. But I obviously can't comment on individual sites because I may well have a role in the planning system for them.

The Menai Crossings

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 7. Will the Minister make a statement on the latest steps the Welsh Government is taking to improve the resilience of the Menai crossings? OQ59966

Lee Waters AC: Diolch. The North Wales Transport Commission is drafting its report on improving resilience of the Menai crossings, and we hope to receive this as soon as it is ready. I understand that the commission will recommend a range of actions to be taken to achieve this, and that report will, of course, will be publicly made available.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: The closure last year, and now the long-term lights on the Menai bridge, have, of course, highlighted the lack of resilience of the Britannia crossing. The reason I ask the question today is because it honestly feels as if Welsh Government has given up on doing anything for the long term to help with the resilience of the crossing. I thought that I had come close, a decade ago, to getting support for a three-lane peak flow system. That couldn't be done. We continued campaigning and, wow, we were promised a new bridge. Then, that was scrapped. 'Use the bus', we were told. Then, buses are cut. 'Use active travel'—the bridge would have been the new route for active travel. Now, I've put forward practical solutions. I wrote in July. I suggested using a three-lane peak flow system as a rapid deployment interim measure. The Minister has written back to me, saying now that that can't be done, that it would take years. Where is the intention to try to get to grips with the problems that we are facing now? The Burns commission, I fear, doesn't have a wide enough remit. The Deputy Minister, Llywydd, I fear is giving us nothing here that shows us that the Government is serious about making real changes for the long term. With storm Agnes on the way, I have very, very nervous constituents again, worried about the island being cut off.

Lee Waters AC: Well, I completely understand the frustration, and I'm disappointed by the slightly churlish comments that the Member has made there. I would have hoped that he would have thought that, in terms of my commitment and relationship with him—[Interruption.] The suggestion that we are not taking it seriously to provide a long-term solution is, believe, churlish. I think I've tried very hard to work with him and given a lot of time to trying to find solutions to do this. These things aren't straightforward. It is my job, as it's his job. I continue my disappointment with the tone that he is taking.
Now, my concern is, having engaged closely with the engineers on this—and he's met with them himself on a number of occasions—it is not as simple as he is making out, unfortunately. I wish it was, because I support what he's trying to do. I was very sympathetic to trying to put in the zipplng system that he suggested, and the engineers are very cautious about that. I understand that the report that we have had back—working with the Burns commission and making engineers available to them—shows that it is going to be very difficult to put that in as a permanent solution, which is very disappointing. We're not giving up on it, and I am certainly asking them to make every effort to try and make that a pragmatic solution. I would be very happy for him, again, to meet with them to go through the detail of that.
As I say, the Burns commission will be producing an overall plan for north Wales. Unfortunately, Lord Burns has had a cycling accident and has taken a knock, and so there might be a delay to the report being published, but we hope to keep that to a minimum. I maintain my commitment to work with the Member to try and find a solution for his constituents.

Mark Isherwood. I think that's a 'no'.

Question 8—Luke Fletcher.

Suitable Living Conditions

Luke Fletcher AS: 8. How is the Welsh Government working with local government colleagues to ensure that people in temporary accommodation have suitable living conditions? OQ59980

Julie James AC: We remain committed to our long-term ambition to end homelessness, and are investing over £210 million in homelessness and housing support services this year alone. The code of guidance on the allocation of accommodation and homelessness sets out guidance for local authorities on the use and the suitability of temporary accommodation.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you for that response, Minister.

Luke Fletcher AS: As of June 2023, there were 10,869 people living in temporary accommodation, of which 3,346 were under the age of 16. Now, my office has seen an increase in the number of constituents coming to us from this setting expressing to us how unsuitable the accommodation is, especially for families. When we raise this with local authorities, very clearly, the pressure is on them. Response times, on average, have taken up to two months, no doubt because of the increased numbers needing temporary accommodation. So, my question is twofold. Firstly, what support is Welsh Government providing to local authorities to deal with the numbers that are needing temporary accommodation? And secondly, what advice would she give to us as Members in terms of the best way to support our constituents?

Julie James AC: Yes. Thank you very much for the question. We're obviously working in collaboration with Plaid Cymru on this matter, because homelessness is part of the co-operation agreement. We continue to take a 'no-one left out' approach, with over 38,600 people experiencing homelessness supported with temporary accommodation since March 2020. We just updated our ending homelessness action plan, which reflects our ambition to reduce dependency on temporary accommodation, as authorities transition towards rapid rehousing.
But Luke Fletcher is quite right: prevention has to be the main focus, and our priority is to reduce the flow of people needing temporary accommodation, so we've provided an additional £6 million to local authorities for a discretionary homelessness prevention fund. We've also tried to increase move-on from temporary accommodation, so we've put something in place called the transitional accommodation capital programme. We established that back at the beginning of last year. It's open to new applications now to deliver more homes for people in temporary accommodation. This is very high-quality temporary accommodation and if the Member would like to visit some, I can certainly arrange that. So, this is accommodation that isn't quite at the spatial standards that we expect for permanent accommodation, and some of it is on what we call 'meanwhile' sites. I recently visited one at the gasworks here in Cardiff, for example, that will become a permanent housing estate, but it will take three to five years for that to happen, and in the meantime, we have very-good-quality temporary accommodation there for a number of families who would otherwise be in much poorer bed-and-breakfast accommodation. But there is absolutely no doubt that we are facing unprecedented numbers of people presenting as homeless. We still have over 1,000 a month right across Wales presenting as homeless, driven, I'm afraid, by the cost-of-living crisis and the effect that that has on family break-up.
So, we've been investing significantly in prevention services and if the Member is having people who present in that circumstance, the two things that we've been asking people to do are, first of all, to make sure that both housing and other public services in your area—so, mental health, substance abuse, social services support—are available if they're still in their homes, and that the council or the people running the housing options in your area are cognisant of the fact that they can do things to keep people in their homes. There are a large range of options available to keep people in their homes, including help with rent arrears, for example, and other issues. And where it's not possible to do that, that they present at the earliest possible opportunity to housing options, so that the maximum amount of time can be taken to find suitable alternative accommodation. And we have enabled councils to provide a range of suitable accommodation; it won't be permanent social housing for rent, in many cases, but it will, nevertheless, be perfectly acceptable accommodation.
We continue to work very hard. In the last figures that I have available, we had just over 1,000 people a month present, back in September, to homelessness services, and about 562 of those households were moved on into permanent accommodation. So, Llywydd, I always say this, I want to pay tribute to the people who work in homelessness services across Wales, who are really working absolutely flat out to try and help people in these circumstances. But I do emphasise that we are very much in the business of trying to keep people in their homes in the first place and to prevent the descent into homelessness, because of the trauma and, indeed, the sheer financial aspects of that.

I thank the Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language

The next item will be the questions to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language, and question 1 today is from Paul Davies.

Vocational Courses

Paul Davies AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on the delivery of vocational courses? OQ59959

Jeremy Miles AC: I published the report from the vocational qualifications review on 11 September. I am considering its recommendations, alongside others, to ensure a joined-up approach across a range of strategic developments. I will provide a further update in due course.

Paul Davies AC: I thank the Minister for that response. Now, earlier this year, Qualifications Wales launched a consultation on three proposals for 14 to 16 qualifications, alongside GCSEs. I met with Pembrokeshire College earlier this year to discuss the consultation and the need for more collaboration between schools and colleges to provide vocational skills in my area. Now, I know that there are concerns about the capacity of some schools to provide additional vocational courses, and there are concerns as to whether some schools will have the appropriate facilities to provide some of these courses. Now, I understand that the results of the consultation are to be published in the new year, but, Minister, can you tell us what discussions you've had with Qualifications Wales on this work, what steps will the Welsh Government take to ensure that these vocational courses can be provided appropriately in schools, and what are you doing to help to facilitate more collaboration between schools and colleges to provide vocational skills here in Wales?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank the Member for those very important questions. This work by Qualifications Wales shows how much of a priority ensuring vocational education is, and the relationship that is so important, as the Member said, between schools and colleges to ensure that there is a pathway for learners that is flexible and aneasy one. The work that Hefin David did recently on education in terms of employment and work in schools is also pushing in that direction: better collaboration between schools and colleges. The work has been taking place in connection with the Welsh Government, of course, we have had conversations with Qualifications Wales about this, and I've also discussed this with further education colleges too to see what the practical implications are of the kind that the Member mentions. We have an opportunity now, over the coming years, to prepare for this new suite of qualifications, so I will want to see over the coming year, when the results of the consultation are made public, what the demand is on the ground to ensure that that pathway is a smooth one, but I can provide an assurance that this is a priority for us as a Government.

John Griffiths AC: Minister, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development highlights the vital importance of vocational education and training. They say this ensures skills development in a wide range of occupational fields, through schools-based and work-based learning. It plays a key role in ensuring lower school drop-out rates and facilitates the school-to-work transition. In a changing world of work, well-designed vocational education and training systems can play a crucial role in developing the right skills for the labour market, not only for youth, but also for adults in need of upskilling or reskilling. Minister, we know the world of work is rapidly changing with the development of technology such as artificial intelligence, and I welcome the review of vocational qualifications chaired by Sharron Lusher, and the subsequent report just published in July. Given the importance of that report, Minister, and the number of recommendations to make vocational training more effective here in Wales, could I ask for an update on progress with those recommendations and their implementation?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank John Griffiths for that question. I share with him the welcome for the report that Sharron Lusher and the other members of her steering group were able to provide to us as a Government. It's a really thoughtful and a very considered report, and has some very clear recommendations for the Welsh Government, but also for other key organisations like Qualifications Wales and the Commission for Tertiary Education and Research, of course. Obviously, I can't speak for those organisations, but my aim is to try and work strategically as we develop our response to the report.
I was keen to lay the report in front of the Senedd at the earliest opportunity, because I know how much interest there is amongst Members in this important area of policy. There is a recommendation, as he will be aware, in the review around a national strategy for vocational education and training, and I think we can take the guidance from that to look at how we better synergise, if you like, education, skills, economic policies and strategies across the Welsh Government.
I think there were some interesting points in there as well about how we approach the question of made-for-Wales qualifications in the future, to do exactly what the Member was encouraging us to do, I think, which is make sure that we have a suite of qualifications that are easily navigable for the learner, but also reflect the needs of what, in some sectors, is a very rapidly changing economy. I think the point he makes about this being an opportunity not only for younger people, but for people throughout their working life, is one that I absolutely endorse.

School Transprt

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 2. Will the Minister provide an update on improving school transport for students? OQ59982

Jeremy Miles AC: The Deputy Minister for Climate Change and I have received the report of the independent review of the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008 and associated guidance. We are currently considering that report, and when that work is concluded, we will publish our response to it.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you very much for that, because as you know, in several parts of Wales, if you want to access Welsh-medium education rather than English-medium education, you have to travel further, because there may be only one or two Welsh-medium schools in some counties, and the lack of provision of transport to Welsh-medium schools causes unfairness and inequality and leads to students leaving Welsh-medium education. So, what are you as a Government doing to provide certainty that sixth-form students in particular, who don’t receive statutory school transport, will receive the support that they need so that they can continue with their education through the medium of Welsh? Because there are a number of cases I’m aware of by now where students have had to move from Welsh-medium education because of the lack of provision of transport, and that of course undermines the Government's aim of reaching a million Welsh speakers.

Jeremy Miles AC: I agree with the Member in terms of prioritising this, and I’ve had discussions myself with head teachers in Welsh-medium schools over the last few months who share the concern that both he and I share. The work that we’ve been doing internally over the past few months, as I’ve said, has resulted in a report provided to myself and the Deputy Minister. But because of the fundamental reforms in terms of transport services and bus services particularly, and the financial situation on the other hand, we don’t see in the short term, at least, that there is an opportunity to amend the legislation itself, but there will be an opportunity to look at the statutory guidance to tackle some of the challenges outlined by the Member in his questions. We will also ensure that the pupil voice and the voice of staff in our schools is also heard as we undertake that work, but there will be an opportunity for us to set out more detail in due time when the work of reviewing that piece of work is concluded.

Russell George AC: Minister, I’ll ask a question around the learner travel review also. In Powys, there are proposals to move Ysgol Bro Caereinion in Llanfair Caereinion from a bilingual school to a Welsh-medium school. There are a number of feeder schools where children are taught through the medium of English that would be affected in this regard. As it currently stands, the local authority will not fund school transport for some children who learn in the medium of English to their nearest English-medium high school. So, this has of course given further concern now, given the proposals that I’ve just outlined. So, will the learner travel Measure review address this issue, and would you agree with me that from an equality perspective and parent-choice issue, this is an issue that needs to be addressed?

Jeremy Miles AC: The learner travel Measure is there, designed in many ways to try and address those questions of equalities that the Member highlights. As I say, I don’t foresee an opportunity to amend the learner travel Measure itself, but there is likely to be an opportunity to address some of the issues, much like some of the points the Member has just made, which have arisen in that internal review, an opportunity to address those in a review of statutory guidance, and that’s what we’ll be looking at over the coming months.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I represent an urban constituency, so I wonder if you could tell us what proportion of the education budget is being spent on school transport, because I have heard as high as 25 per cent. As we’re about to celebrate the tenth anniversary of the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013, what work are you doing with local education authorities in urban areas like Cardiff to get more pupils to walk, scoot, or cycle to school? Because that would be good for their health and it would be good for reinvesting the savings into teaching and learning.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Jenny Rathbone for that timely question, given the anniversary that she rightly points to. Obviously, the level of funding that is devoted to school transport will vary from local authority to local authority for obvious reasons, but it can be very significant indeed, in the way that she was suggesting, but I think the focus that we want to bring recognises the importance of active travel, as I know that she is herself very committed to. So, for example, the work that we do around requiring schools to develop active travel school plans: we know that helps, obviously, with safety, but also with healthfulness. We know that it helps in terms of classroom focus. And we're moving to a situation where having a plan in place will become a condition for accessing a range of other funds as well. The work that we do to promote school streets and the active journeys programme, but also in relation to the new build programme that we have, which, as she knows, is very significant, we've strengthened the active travel planning requirements for any new school development. The chair of the active travel advisory board has been working closely with us on making sure that those requirements on authorities, as they bring forward plans for funding, are robust and really meet the objectives that we have for them.

Carolyn Thomas AS: I'd like to alert the Minister that school transport in north Wales is at risk again as it's tied in with public transport. The proposed network being put forward by the joint working groups has said the transition fund is not enough to cover proposals, costs are increasing, and passenger numbers are not returning. They're really concerned when it comes to an end in March. Bus Users UK are running a Catch the Bus campaign for this month. So, please will you continue having dialogue with the Deputy Minister for Climate Change and the Welsh Local Government Association, to keep a watching eye, and encourage everyone to support the bus, and also the soon-to-be-launched Transport for Wales Back the Bus campaign, which should hopefully be launched next month? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: That's a really important point that Carolyn Thomas has just made. Obviously, many of the challenges that we're discussing now are reflective of that broader drop-off in bus usage across the commercial network, which is why we have had to respond in the way that we have, with the substantial funding that we've made available. We're absolutely aware of the cost pressures being faced right across the public sector. Carrying learners on local bus services is often the most cost-effective way of carrying learners. As the Member knows, a number of local authorities have already integrated their learner travel with local bus services, and we are keen to see that happening, obviously, on a much wider basis, for reasons that I know she will support.
The regional planning meetings that local authorities, Transport for Wales and bus companies have been holding have sought to prioritise routes that support school journeys as well, which is obviously the right thing. But I do agree very strongly with the Member's comments on the need to support the Back the Bus campaign. I understand that Transport for Wales will be making available to Members of the Senedd marketing material, so that we can all take forward that campaign in our constituencies and through our own networks.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Welsh Conservatives spokesperson, Laura Anne Jones.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. Minister, earlier this year, I questioned you on violence in Welsh schools, after my office and I uncovered 5,000 incidents of violence occurring in Welsh classrooms, from just some of the local authorities across Wales. At the time, you said you were aware of the issues and had begun speaking to the unions regarding these issues. However, we're months down the line now and we're still yet to see a statement on this issue. I gave you the blueprint of how to perhaps begin to fix the issue when I first exposed the issue months back, and yet again you have failed to listen to the urgency needed, and failed to act as yet. We still have no reporting standard, we still have no requirement to report abuse or violence in the classroom. The thousands of incidents that we already know about are just the tip of iceberg, and the actual picture is probably far, far worse. So, Minister, for the second time of asking, will you now, today, commit to taking actual action on this, hosting a national summit on violence; issuing new guidance for teachers and staff; continuing your work on reforming exclusions that you said you'd begun; ensuring extra funding for meaningful interventions; and creating perhaps a national helpline? These are just some of the things that you could do. What action are you going to take, Minister?

Jeremy Miles AC: Can I thank the Children, Young People and Education Committee for the work they did in bringing this issue to the attention of the Senedd, in the work they were doing earlier this year and the end of last year? I think it's been a really important contribution to our understanding of this issue in schools. Teachers are absolutely entitled to work in a safe environment. We cannot tolerate poor behaviour—violent behaviour and abusive behaviour—where it arises. Equally, exclusions are not the answer; young people should be in the class, being able to learn. The reasons for this are complex, but we must start from those principles. What we have been doing over the last number of months, together with teaching unions, wider education workforce unions, and local authorities, is developing that guidance, as I mentioned when the Member last raised this in the Chamber. It is really important that the way we do this is in collaboration with unions and LEAs. That's the work that is happening, and I hope very much we'll be able to bring forward that guidance very soon.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Well, Minister, let's hope it's sooner rather than later, because teachers need to feel safe, as you said, in school. Until real changes are put in place, this issue is only going to get worse. It was only two weeks ago, Minister, that members of the NASUWT teachers union voted to strike over their concerns about failures to address increased levels of violence in one of the schools in, actually, my own region. Instead of you taking urgent action on an escalating problem, it has now escalated to such an extreme point that teachers feel they need to strike because of concerns over their safety and the violent and abusive behaviour that they face.Minister, your inaction has led to teachers feeling unsafe to teach. You're failing teachers.Minister, what will you do? What will have to happen before you actually recognise the urgency behind this? You said you're developing guidance. Can you not see the urgency behind this, if teachers feel the need to strike, as we saw two weeks ago? Perhaps implement my five-point plan, take more ideas from it; I'm willing to share them with you. Or will it take more strikes for you to actually take urgent action?

Jeremy Miles AC: I'm not sure most people recognise the language with which the Member is choosing to present this issue. It's obviously a complex issue, and I don't think it helps anybody to paint it in the lurid light that she is doing. It's a serious issue, which requires serious consideration. The school that she refers to—. I'm not going to comment on any specific school—[Interruption.] I'm not going to comment on any specific school for obvious reasons, but what I do know is that teachers are entitled to work in a safe environment. Local authorities have a duty to provide that. And I know that, right across Wales, local authorities will be engaged with their teaching workforce to make sure that that is in place. I very much hope that's capable of being resolved in the school that she mentioned as well.

Laura Anne Jones AC: I look forward to a statement in Plenary soon.
Minister, it seems quite timely today to talk about school transport, as others Members have just talked about it, and it's on the same theme, actually. School transport has caused a great deal of anxiousness for both learners and parents over the last couple of weeks, and the lack of school transport that there is. I spoke to a local authority only on Monday that said that they are stuck between a rock and a hard place because they want to give those children that absolutely need it that dedicated school transport, but they can't because you have once again lowered the money that's coming from the Welsh Government to local authorities for school transport. We talked about parental preference just now; it seems very 'What a lovely thing to do, this is a pretty school, I'll send my child there', but there are real reasons for that parental preference that have been put there, be it that those children want to learn Welsh, as was discussed earlier, or because their siblings go to that school, or if there's an additional learning needs matter that another school—not the one right next to them—is better at delivering. There are real reasons that they choose that parental preference, but as soon as they do, they are not entitled to school transport, and there absolutely needs to be more flexibility around it; it's far too rigid.
Also, discussing with the local authority, we're talking about a real move—a policy move, it seems—from the Welsh Government away from dedicated school transport to using public buses. You said earlier that that is an intention that you have and you want to celebrate and promote it. But, Minister—. I nearly called you First Minister then; that was wishful thinking, perhaps. [Interruption.] Minister, after talking to people, there are real, real concerns in my inbox, and I'm sure in many others in this Chamber, about using public buses, for a myriad of reasons, be it safeguarding or whatever. But one of the practical things we could do to make it better for our learners is—. Some students are waiting 45 minutes before and after school, in the cold, the dark, and the rain, because the bus route they've been put on, or it's been suggested they use, does not wrap around school times. These bus routes that learners have to—

You're going to have to ask a question, otherwise we'll be waiting 45 minutes for that.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Well, I could easily talk about it for 45 minutes.

That wasn't permission.

Laura Anne Jones AC: But I won't. But that's just an easy solution, Minister—to ensure that you work with bus companies to ensure that those routes are school-centric and that those children's well-being isn't being affected. How are you working across Government, obviously, because it falls into other portfolios as well, to ensure that these children are getting to school, which falls in your portfolio, and that their well-being isn't affected, which is your portfolio?

Jeremy Miles AC: With respect, for a question that's been answered twice, that took rather a long time to put. I've been very clear about the work that is happening across Government. The Member may have paid earlier attention to the answers I was giving; there's a lot of work happening across the Government. There's a lot of work happening in relation to the review of the Measure, and I've outlined today, I think, very crisply on two occasions, the next steps in relation to that.
She makes the point about funding in her customary Kafkaesque way as though these things were not the product of the political choice that her Government in Westminster is making, which is causing difficulties in all sorts of public services. This is a Government in Wales that has invested £190 million to sustain a commercial bus service over the last year. We have a commercial bus service because a Conservative Government deregulated bus services and created a profit-making market. It is entirely the product of political choices made elsewhere. What we are doing through the bus transition fund and the bus emergency scheme is to make sure that the majority of routes have been protected. It is not a universal solution; it is a very significant investment in trying to address the challenge. And for those interested in a practical solution rather than a political slogan, they will know that working through the regional planning teams, prioritising, wherever possible, routes that serve school journeys as well, is the way of doing that, and we stand ready as a Government to continue to support that work.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Llywydd. Minister, yesterday, the Wales expert group's report on the cost-of-living crisis was published. It restates what’s clear to us all, namely that the cost-of-living crisis has increased the number of children and young people living in poverty. Many of the recommendations in the report overlap with or are part of your portfolio, such as extending free school meals to more children and young people in the secondary sector and to ensure that school governors do deliver against their statutory responsibilities in terms of school uniform. How will you act on this?

Jeremy Miles AC: It's part of the wide-ranging plan that we have as a Government that’s been worth around £3 billion over the past two years to do our best to ensure that there is money in the pockets of those families who are struggling. So, in schools, there are free school meals that we’ve introduced, alongside Plaid Cymru, in primary schools, and that’s making a significant contribution to that. The work that I’ve done as Minister to ensure that we changed school guidance on school uniform and increased the availability of the school essentials fund is an example of the work that is taking place in our schools to support young people.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you very much. I understand that, but the reality of the situation is that not all schools are complying with the guidance. Unfortunately, we know that costs are still a problem with school uniforms. One of the things in yesterday's report was a request for Ministers to chair meetings to ensure that what you want to see is being delivered on the ground.
Recommendation 9 of the expert group suggested that the Welsh Government extends provision of free school meals to years 7 to 11 for those households in receipt of universal credit without a cap on earnings from this month. This was published in August—it requires immediate action. So, how are you considering these recommendations with other Ministers? Which ones will you consider implementing? Because according to this report, we could ensure that 8,335 pupils become eligible for school meals now.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you to the Member for that additional question. In terms of free school meals, the choice that we've made jointly means that the funding that we have invested has expanded the provision to primary schools. Our policy as a Government is that we look at extending that when resources allow. But the situation in terms of resources is a very challenging one, and what we've invested, which is worth around £3 billion, I think is a significant contribution. It can't meet every demand, clearly. There are challenges for many families and they're very real challenges, but my role as a Minister is to find every opportunity that I can to ensure that the school day costs aren't a barrier, and I think that over the past year or so, there are several ways that we've been able to do just that.
In terms of the point that you made about school uniforms, there is a requirement on governing bodies to review their policies, and so that will happen over the coming months. Some are already reaching the aims set out in the guidance, but we are seeing this happening increasingly at the moment. It is very important that we ensure that this is in place for every family. Families that are eligible for free school meals are facing particular pressures, but there are many other families that aren't eligible but also see costs being very high, and so those wider policies are important to them, too.

Mobile Phones in Schools

Alun Davies AC: 3. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's policy on the use of mobile phones in schools? OQ59984

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes. Policies on mobile phones in school is a matter for schools and governing bodies themselves. Technology can be a useful tool to aid teaching and learning, and schools will consider this when setting their policies in line with the particular school's needs and learning requirements.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the Minister for that response. I recognise the point that he's making. My question is about the impact of mobile technology and social media on children and young people and their ability to learn in school. The Minister is absolutely correct, of course, that mobile technology is a great boon to learning and it's a fantastic opportunity, but it also leads to a great deal of bullying.
All of us, as we visit schools and as we meet people and we spend time talking with people, will have memories of those conversations. One of the memories I have is of speaking with a group of teenagers who spoke to me incredibly passionately and movingly about mobile technology and social media and the way it can be used to bully them and the impact that was having on their mental health and their feelings of well-being and their ability to learn. And I think, whilst we support the use of mobile technology—I do so myself in the Chamber and there are great advantages to that, like being able to follow the rugby, for example, at the moment [Laughter.]—the other side of that is, of course, is, as one girl said to me, 'I'm bullied when I'm in bed at night, because there are people saying things about me on social media and I can't escape this.' Now, she has to go to school in the morning and not only face those people but understand what's in her mind about what had happened to her. And my concern is—and we all recognise the fantastic work that teaching staff and school communities do—how we can work together collectively to share experience, to share knowledge about how we can address some of these issues that I think have a fantastically negative impact on young people and their ability to learn and grow in safety through their school life.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I think Alun Davies makes very, very powerful points in what he's just said, and we know—and there's been a recent report, as I'm sure he will know by UNESCO as well in relation to the use of smartphones in the classroom, and they've been calling for a global ban on them, if you like—there is obviously evidence that excessive mobile phone use, even in its most benign form, can be linked to reduced educational performance and, certainly, in the way that he was describing, the bullying, and there are even more pernicious uses that people make of mobile technology. That can have a very negative effect on emotional stability.
I do think it's a matter where a balance needs to be struck, because it's also important that we help our young people understand how to respond to some of those challenges. The digital competency framework offers some opportunities for mobile phone use to illustrate some of those broader challenges in the work that we've been doing to create resources to support learners to address the kind of challenge that Alun Davies is describing, which we now have on Hwb, through the 'keeping safe online' portal. I think what he's saying, though, is an illustration of a broader social challenge, and I often speak to heads who are wrestling with how best to strike this particular balance. I think, ultimately, it's for schools to decide that, but I think it's really essential that they listen to the voice of their learners, just in the way that Alun Davies was hearing directly from the young person who he has been quoting.

Sam Rowlands AS: Alun Davies is absolutely right to raise this issue here today. At a personal level, it's something affecting me in my family now, because I always said to my children, 'No mobile phones until high school'. Annoyingly, one of them started high school this year, so we're having to understand that process of them having hold of a mobile phone.
Minister, you referenced the UNESCO report, and you're absolutely right to reference that. As you said, they are seeking a global ban on mobile phones in the classroom. And, as you'll know, they point to the distractions of mobile phones in classrooms, alongside cyber bullying and the impact on children's emotional stability. You'll also know, Minister, that within that report they also highlight concerns around data protection and privacy concerns, especially in terms of the data that is being harvested on children in applications that they're using, either in the classroom or with educational apps that they're encouraged or actually made to use within schools. I wonder, Minister, what efforts you're making to reassure parents that data on their children is not being unnecessarily taken or inappropriately used.

Jeremy Miles AC: The Member will know of the work that Sarah Murphy has been doing in relation to the data of children in schools, which is, I think, really elevating the level of debate in this Chamber in relation to that issue in a very compelling way, in my opinion. I think the Member makes very valid points. We have, in fact, as a consequence of Sarah's campaigning, changed the guidance to schools in relation to the very, very important points that the Members has raised today.
Headteachers already have the ability to ban the use of mobile phones, either generally or in particular ways, and I know and he will know that heads are using that power. I've also spoken to heads who, whilst they might want to do that, have recognised the challenges that go with that and are making pragmatic judgments. I think some of the points that he is making, though, are exactly the sort of issue that our new curriculum, for example, is designed to support young people to recognise and to address themselves. I think it is a slightly more complex picture than simply saying an outright ban is the right way forward.

The Pupil Development Grant

Jane Dodds AS: 4. What impact has the pupil development grant had on pupil attainment since its introduction in 2012? OQ59960

Jeremy Miles AC: The pupil development grant has a key part to play in our national mission to tackle the impact of poverty on attainment. Year on year, we have extended the grant to reflect changes in the numbers of learners eligible for free school meals.

Jane Dodds AS: Diolch yn fawr iawn, Gweinidog. While I welcome the Welsh Government's continued support for this policy, which, as you know, was first spearheaded by a Liberal Democrat in 2012, over a quarter of Welsh children live in poverty, and a wealth of research demonstrates the detrimental impact that this has upon their learning, leading to poorer physical health and mental health and chronic underachievement. A report last year from the Child Poverty Action Group highlighted that 55,000 children are currently unable to benefit from access funds, which are now renamed the 'school essentials grant', due to parents and carers actually being in work but very low paid work. The cost of school supplies and uniforms places enormous pressure on struggling families, and the children's commissioner this week criticised the Government's proposed child poverty strategy for its lack of ambition and detail, so we really do need to really step up to ensure that no child is left behind this school year. So, could you outline specifically the actions that the Welsh Government is going to be taking to ensure the school essentials grant accurately reflects current costs, and whether it will be expanding eligibility to support more low-income families who are struggling with school expenses? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, the school essentials grant is a very important contributor to our efforts on a cross-Government basis to make sure that young people have access to school and that the cost of the school day doesn't discourage attendance, for example, and, when young people are in school, it's enabling them and supporting them to flourish. So, alongside the £130 million that we're investing this year for the pupil development grant, there has been a significant expansion of the availability of the school essentials grant. She will remember that, until last year, that was only available to pupils in every other year. I made the decision last year to extend that by making it available to pupils in every single year. So, that's been a very, very significant expansion of that important fund, and it is by some margin the largest fund of its kind in any part of the UK, and I'm proud of that because I think it demonstrates our commitment as a Government. But I do recognise the point that the Member makes, which is that it isn't available to all pupils. That's why measures such as the new affordability requirements for school uniform are also important, and the work that we're doing more broadly to drive down the cost of the school day, because families who don't qualify for free school meals, who may be just above the threshold, are still finding it very difficult. That's why those broader policies are really important.

Gareth Davies AS: I'm pleased this subject has been raised this afternoon as the pupil development grant aims to raise the attainment of children and young people from low-income backgrounds, as you mentioned. But the grant, which is supposed to help the least-well-off families in Wales, has been cut, leaving pupils and teaching professionals in my constituency, such as west Rhyl and upper Denbigh, struggling to access resources and funding. So, why, during a cost-of-living crisis, have the Welsh Government cut a grant that helps the most vulnerable people in my constituency? You say you're passionate about the policy and the grant. So, why did you cut it?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, just to be crystal clear with the Member, the grant has not been cut—it has been increased.

Vikki Howells AC: Minister, following on from what you said, and speaking to parents, carers, families, young people and schools in my constituency, I know that the school essentials grant and its predecessor schemes are both really welcome as a lifeline for people who can access it. As the grant can be accessed until May, can I ask what work is being done to ensure take-up later within the school year if families don't apply for it at the start of term to ensure that changes of circumstance are captured and that eligible children and young people don't lose out?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, we're making sure that my officials are working with local authorities to make sure the grant is publicised locally throughout the academic year. I think the Member makes a very important point about that. The grant can be accessed until May. We've been very clear that it's an important priority of how we introduce the new primary free school meals policy, for example—that we are not, if you like, inadvertently discouraging people from applying for the school essentials grant. Actually, that's part of the reason why we rebranded it to the 'school essentials grant' so that it was, I think, more intelligible to most people than a 'PDG access grant', which doesn't mean that much to most of us, really. And that's why we've also been making sure that we have a prominent comms and marketing campaign, which has been under way now for just over a year, to promote the grant itself. So, we do not have evidence at this point that that shift has caused a drop in the number of people applying, but it's something that, obviously, we need to keep a continuous eye on.

Autistic Pupils

Mark Isherwood AC: 5. What action is the Welsh Government taking to prevent discrimination against autistic pupils in education settings? OQ59955

Jeremy Miles AC: Discrimination of any kind has no place in Wales. Under the Equality Act 2010, schools and other education providers must not treat disabled pupils less favourably. The Welsh Government is committed to creating an inclusive education system that enables all learners to thrive and to achieve their full potential.

Mark Isherwood AC: Despite the High Court ruling in 2018 that the exclusion of an autistic pupil for behaviour arising from their autism was unlawful, I continue to receive north Wales casework where this is happening. On related issues, a Flintshire parent wrote this month:
'We now have a highly skilled psychiatrist and psychologist in the autism field, who have reported my son’s behaviour is a result of bad experiences in his previous school, and his difficulties in communicating these are not related to any parental concern.'
A Wrexham parent wrote:
'We decided to go to education tribunal. The decision of the tribunal was that my daughter was unlawfully discriminated against on three separate occasions: indirect discrimination, discrimination due to disability, and harassment.'
And a mother wrote to me as chair of the cross-party autism group:
'I'd like to make you aware that the education tribunal upheld against Neath college with discrimination against my autistic son, with damning outcomes.'
These and many other cases evidence that this is not a safe, autistic-friendly Wales. How do you therefore respond to the calls that I've received for an urgent public inquiry to stop the abuse that is still going on?

Jeremy Miles AC: The Member makes reference to a number of examples that I'm not personally aware of, but the way he describes them are distressing and unacceptable, obviously. I'm actually meeting the president of the education tribunal in the coming weeks and will take that opportunity of discussing with her the point that the Member has made today. As I said in opening response to the Member, it is imperative that we make sure that we have an education system that is inclusive of all young people, and that is certainly the aim of this Government.

Adult Community Learning

Rhianon Passmore AC: 6. What is the Welsh Government doing to support adult community learning in Islwyn? OQ59964

Jeremy Miles AC: We're delivering on our programme for government commitment to review and increase the number of adult learners across Islwyn and all of Wales. Through investment, innovation and working in partnership with providers, we are building capacity to both promote and deliver adult learning to the widest possible audience.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Diolch, Minister. Last week was Adult Learners' Week 2023, and Adult Learners' Week is an annual campaign co-ordinated in partnership with the Welsh Government that aims to connect people to a wide range of learning opportunities and demonstrate the benefits of adult learning and celebrate the very real achievements of people, projects and organisations across Wales, and organisations that are every day championing a wide range of lifelong opportunities and skills growth. I'm sure the Minister will join with me in thanking them all for what they do.

Rhianon Passmore AC: So, thank you all very much.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Minister, we know that people's employment journey will be varied and will require adaptability and flexibility to reskill increasingly throughout working lives. More so than ever, as we see major companies now disinvesting or folding across Great Britain due to what seems to be the UK policy impacts of record-high inflation, chronic lack of growth and the inability to trade effectively with our largest market. So, considering all this, Minister, what further work can and will the Welsh Government undertake, and also in partnership with local organisations across Islwyn, to both champion and cascade this wonderful campaign, now running for over a quarter of a century, which every day is transforming life opportunities, transforming lives and transforming futures? Diolch.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I thank the Member for making specific reference to Adult Learners' Week. It's such a good shop window, isn't it, to the opportunities that exist for people to return to education at any point in their life, and goes to the heart of my personal hope for Wales to become a nation of second chances, where it's never too late to learn? Many of us will have been at the Inspire! awards the week before, which, as always, more than lived up to their name, and you hear really incredibly compelling and often very moving stories about how people have been able to take advantage of learning in later life.
The key, I think, is that that week that showcases the benefit of learning, that people who take their first steps in that week have a clear pathway, then, through to a range of options. We've got to increase the number of adult learners both in Islwyn and beyond, and that's about working with providers through the adult learning partnerships, and I think to try and mainstream some of the successful engagement that we have seen. We funded some of that through a £2 million funding package to raise awareness of adult learning again after the pandemic, where we've seen numbers drop. So, it's about that partnership working, and also we are taking forward a programme of national co-ordination. One of the challenges in this space is it's quite a complex space; it's quite a large offer, and it's quite difficult to navigate for some people. So, finding a way of co-ordinating that, which the partnerships are helping us to do, is, I think, a really important part, but I thank the Member for taking the opportunity to highlight Adult Learners' Week.

Natasha Asghar AS: Minister, there's absolutely no denying whatsoever that adult community learning can really help unlock someone's potential. It can help someone acquire new skills, achieve qualifications, set them on the path to further education, or, in fact, take them directly into employment. However, it has been warned recently that the cost is deterring people from some of my region's most deprived areas from taking advantage of these types of courses. So, Minister, what discussions have you had with your Cabinet colleagues, in particular the Minister for Finance and Local Government, about making adult community learning more accessible for people from deprived communities? Thanks.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I can assure the Member that it goes beyond discussions, important though they are, and so, this year, we're investing a total of £1.28 million in local authorities in Gwent alone, and around £6.21 million nationally to strengthen adult community learning, and this is in addition to over £13 million that we've provided to further education colleges across the south-east to provide adult learning in their settings. I agree with her entirely: accessibility to these opportunities is at the heart. That's been one of the challenges that for some years we've been trying to grapple with, and I'm really pleased that we are making progress in that space, with the renewed focus that we've given to this area.

Longer School Day

Joel James AS: 7. Will the Minister provide an update on findings from the longer school day trial? OQ59976

Jeremy Miles AC: An evaluation of the additional enrichment sessions trials was published back in January. It found that children and young people, parents and settings were positive about the opportunities provided, and we are considering the findings in the context of our wider educational policies and reforms.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Joel James AS: Thank you, Minister. As you will be aware, many children sadly do not get the opportunity to play sports, to do creative activities such as learning to play a musical instrument or a language, or to have additional maths or English tuition that will help them in their studies. And evidence has shown that those children that do benefit from these extracurricular activities have more opportunities open to them. When they graduate from high school, they are found to be healthier, both mentally and physically, have a better sense of well-being, and they're also, on the whole, more confident individuals. At the moment we have a system where some children get lots of extra-curricular activity because their parents can afford it or are motivated to take them to them, and some children who get no extra-curricular activities whatsoever. What this ultimately means is that some children may not reach their full potential or have the opportunities open to them that they could have otherwise. Extending the school day does not necessarily mean more lessons and it's an opportunity for schools and children to do lots of fun activities, and support learning and child development. So, with this in mind, Minister, what resources have you identified and ring-fenced, so that all schools can provide extra-curricular activity every school day? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I'm afraid the context in which we now look at policies of this sort is obviously very different, given the impact of inflation and choices made elsewhere about the overall level of investment in public services across the UK. However, in Wales, through things like the national music service, through the investment we've made into schools post COVID, which is significantly ahead of any other part of the UK, through the introduction of a new curriculum—all of these are providing those broader opportunities. I agree entirely with Joel James: it's really important that alongside the opportunities to get an excellent education, we want all our young people to have that breadth of experience, that cultural experience, that sporting experience and others, and not all young people are able to benefit from that. But that is what lies behind those system-wide investments that we've made in order to try and level that playing field and give everybody the access to the rich set of experiences that he described in this question.

And finally, question 8, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Additional Learning Needs

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 8. What finance is the Minister providing to schools to support students with additional learning needs? OQ59954

Jeremy Miles AC: Funding for schools is provided to local authorities, mainly through the revenue support grant. In addition to that, we continue to make significant investment in the additional learning needs implementation process by investing over £62 million revenue and £20 million capital between 2020 and 2023.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. Minister, you'll be aware that letters have come to you on this issue. The education committee's scrutiny of the implementation of the Welsh Government's reforms has highlighted concerns about capacity limitations within schools and local authorities that could mean the threshold for learners to be identified as having ALN could rise under the new system. Now, you assured the committee that you would make sure the new ALN system is driven by the particular profile of needs of the individual learners rather than the levels of resource available. However, numerous schools I have visited in Aberconwy, to include Ysgol San Siôr that my colleague Laura Anne Jones MS came to with me, have identified requiring this financial support as soon as possible after a pupil is identified as needing that support. Now, they describe it as months that they have to fund this extra support before they're then reimbursed, and some schools are finding that really unachievable. So, what can you do to speed up the process that, when children are identified as requiring extra support, the schools themselves get that financial funding as soon as possible? Diolch.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, the Member will appreciate that the relationship between the school and the funding stream is one that lies in the hands of the local authority, not of the Welsh Government. I have outlined the funding that we are putting into the system. But she makes an important point about how funding reaches the front line, and I think, with the significant levels of funding going into the system, we'll want to make sure that that is actually reaching the right end points, if you like. We have obviously, over the last two years, increased the funding available to local councils quite significantly, but the pressures are very real on their budgets, as they are both on ours and on school budgets as well. But to give the Member reassurance, the point that she raises, about how the money gets to the front line, is one that I very much have in mind and I will be working with local authorities in relation to that.

Thank you, Minister.

3. Topical Questions

Item 3 is the topical questions, and the first topical question is from Cefin Campbell.

The Fflecsi Bwcabus Service

Cefin Campbell AS: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on the announcement that the Fflecsi Bwcabus service will be coming to an end, and the impact of this on the communities of Mid and West Wales? TQ851

Lee Waters AC: Yes, thank you. I was very sorry to hear that the Bwcabus service will be coming to an end. Despite promises that Wales would be not worse off after Brexit, the UK Government has failed to replace funding for rural transport schemes previously supported by the EU. We're therefore unable to continue supporting Bwcabus, but we are working with Transport for Wales and the local authorities to explore alternative options.

Cefin Campbell AS: Thank you very much. I'm pleased to hear that consideration is being given to the continuation of the service, because a number of communities across Ceredigion, Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire have been shocked by the announcement that Government funding for the Bwcabus service is coming to an end, and that the service itself will be terminated at the end of October.For years, this unique service has been a priceless resource for so many residents across west Wales. Truth be told, the service is more than a bus; in several cases, this is the only way that people can reach medical appointments, go to the shops and socialise. I heard one woman speaking on Radio Cymru last night about the impact of this loss on her, because she is entirely dependent on this bus to take her to see the doctor every week. So, the impact is massive on some individuals.
I know too that the decision has come as a bit of a shock to local authorities, despite the fact that the Welsh Government invested in a fleet of new buses for this service as recently as July of this year. But the irony is that we hear the Government speaking time and time again about the importance of public transport to connect communities and the positive impact that that then has on the environment. But what happens is that these vital services are being cut, especially in rural areas. So, may I urge you to work hard to ensure that this service is re-established, and to provide long-term assurance for this very important scheme?

Lee Waters AC: Thank you for that, and the Member is right to note the irony, because this is going in the opposite direction of where our policy wants us to go. We do not want this to happen, just to be very clear. Bwcabus has been a really important project and it has, in fact, inspired the Fflecsi service that we are rolling out across Wales. So, Bwcabus was the original concept that Professor Stuart Cole and others had developed, and I've been a supporter of it. It was primarily European funded—the Welsh Government was only a minority funder—and like so many other schemes that we in Wales have come to rely upon, the money just simply isn't there to keep all those other schemes going that were funded by the EU.
Now, we were told at the time of Brexit that Wales would not be a penny worse off by withdrawing, and we know, in fact, that we've lost over £1 billion of funding and that simply is not there to be replaced. Now, I hear groans from the Conservative benches and I know they don't want, as a matter of faith, to hear anything negative about Brexit, but here is a practical example of a much valued, cherished local service that was reliant on European funding that is not able to be sustained because that funding has been taken away. Because the other double-whammy we're facing also from their Government is the impact of austerity where our budgets are being squeezed, and we simply aren't able to provide everything we've been providing.
We've worked very hard with the bus industry and with local authorities over the summer to try and safeguard as many services as possible, and I'm pleased to say that, for example, funding for the Cardi Bach in Ceredigion will continue as part of the Transport for Wales T5 procurement. And we will work closely with community transport and with local authorities to see if there are elements of this scheme that can be salvaged. It did have light usage but it was, as he said, a lifeline for those who did use it, and I regret very much that it's come to an end.

Samuel Kurtz AS: I agree and concur with Cefin Campbell, and only last night I was contacted by a constituent, Mr Davies, regarding the end of the Fflecsi Bwcabus service. Now, Mr Davies regularly offers lifts to the shops for his neighbours who may be in need of help, and I'm sure we can all agree that this is an incredibly kind gesture towards his community. However, as Mr Davies rightfully pointed out, this is something that isn’t available to many of my residents across South Pembrokeshire and West Carmarthenshire. Now, the termination of the Fflecsi Bwcabus service with roughly just a month’s notice for residents will further damage the accessibility to already infrequent transport links and access to necessary shops and amenities whilst further harming those already suffering rural isolation, and, as Mr Davies says, the service is for the most vulnerable members of our Pembrokeshire community, both young and elderly. So, given that the Welsh Government has known for some time that rural development programme funding was due to end, why is the Fflecsi Bwcabus service being terminated with only a month’s notice? And to paraphrase the greater Manchester Labour mayor, why is it always that the rural communities miss out and Cardiff gets everything it wants?

Lee Waters AC: Well, the service was run by the local authorities, not by the Welsh Government, and they have been clear for some time that they had no resources to keep it going. The resources from the European Union have come to an end as a result of Brexit, and that is a direct consequence of that. Those who advocated for Brexit and made promises to Wales that the money would not be lost to Wales need to explain why that money hasn't been replaced, because there's a £1 billion shortfall. I'm afraid Samuel Kurtz is giving a running commentary—I can't quite hear what he's saying. I know he's not content, but I can't hear what he's saying, I'm sorry.
But the fact remains that this is not what we want to see happening. This is going in the opposite direction of the policy we want to see pursued, but without the money we simply cannot run services that we cannot fund. I think that is a crying shame. We are doing a lot of work on rural transport and how the rural areas can contribute to the modal shift targets we have, but we can't run services without funding, and that, I'm afraid, is the tension that we face.
So, I share everything that has been said about the regret that this service will no longer continue. I need no persuading of its merits. All I need is cash to keep it going, and in the presence of broken Brexit promises I'm afraid I don't have any.

Jane Dodds AS: Minister, I have an idea for cash to keep it going, which I’ve raised with you before, which is that I understand you’re going to be saving money on not building new roads, which I totally support, and I think, in response to a question in the Siambr, you did say to me that there would be a lag, there would be a run-in, in order for the money to come in from the savings from road building. But I just wonder if there’s any idea from you whether we can start looking at any urgent funding from not building those new roads to go over to Bwcabus so that they can keep going, so that they don’t lose that custom. Because you do know that, as soon as something is lost, like a bus service, it’s really hard to get it back. So, I really would urge you to see if there’s anything that we can find in order to keep Bwcabus going. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Lee Waters AC: Well, obviously I understand the sentiment and support it, because that's the intent behind the policy in the medium term, as you know. But this is a funding decision for this financial year, and in this financial year we are still building roads, despite the Conservatives trying to tell everyone we've banned road building. If that was the case I'd have a lot more money in my budget. We haven't banned road building, we are building roads, and we'll continue building roads. So, there isn't money in this financial year, nor, in fact, would it be much help, because that would be capital funding, and buses require revenue funding. It sounds like a nerdy accounting point, but it really does shape the choices that we have to make.
What we need to do, clearly, to meet our climate targets is to shift more people onto public transport. That is more difficult to do in rural areas, but it's absolutely doable. We are working on a paper that we're going to publish shortly looking at examples from rural Sweden and rural Switzerland and rural Germany where they do have a bus every hour for every village. So, it's perfectly possible to do if the funding is made available. In their case, many of them use local taxes on businesses to pay for those services.
So, I do think we need a mature debate across the Chamber to look at how we can sustain these vital public services, but, as I say again, if there was a way for me to keep this going, I would have fought very hard to find it. We are facing extreme financial pressures this financial year. The First Minister has already announced we have to find £900 million of savings. It's particularly difficult for revenue funding, which is what the Bwcabus scheme relied upon. But the really big issue here—and this is something the Conservatives are now all staring at their screens at—is that this is a failure by the UK Government to follow through on their promises to replace any EU funding lost to Wales as a result of Brexit. They said we wouldn't be £1 worse off; we are in fact £1 billion worse off, and this is what it looks like. This is what it looks like—bus services in rural Pembrokeshire, in rural Carmarthenshire, in rural Ceredigion, cut because of broken promises.

Paul Davies AC: Deputy Minister, it is extremely disappointing to hear the announcement that the Bwcabus service will come to an end, as it has been a lifeline to so many residents in the more rural parts of my constituency. Now, I appreciate that you have said that the Welsh Government is working on a rural pathway to explore potential solutions with local authorities and communities. Perhaps you could tell us a little bit more about that work, and what discussions have taken place with Pembrokeshire County Council and local stakeholders about building a public transport network in west Wales that works for those communities.
I know that the Welsh Government has announced a bus Bill to consider how bus services are provided in the future. Now, the First Minister himself said that this Bill will put people before profit. So, perhaps you could tell us about how the closure of the Bwcabus service will affect that Bill. You mentioned Professor Stuart Cole, and he has made it clear that the Bwcabus service was the cheapest way of running a rural bus service. So, in light of his comments, perhaps you could indicate how the Welsh Government intends to deliver services more efficiently in west Wales in the future.
Finally, Deputy Presiding Officer, I understand that there are financial challenges that all Governments have to face. That's why the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee has published a comprehensive report on post-EU funding. Now, the committee report does quote Professor Steve Fothergill from Sheffield Hallam University, and he says in evidence to the committee that both Governments are right when it comes to funding, because both Governments are measuring different things. That's what Professor Fothergill told this Senedd committee, and I would urge the Deputy Minister to read our report. One of the recommendations in the committee report was to ensure that there is more of a regional approach to delivering funding, so that it can better address issues like this in the future. I hope that, in the future, we see a much more co-ordinated regional approach to post-EU funding, and I hope, Deputy Minister, that you'll support this committee recommendation, and all of the recommendations in our report.

Lee Waters AC: While I have a great deal of respect for Professor Fothergill and his work, the fact remains that this is a revenue-funded scheme by the EU that hasn't been replaced, and the funding has come to an end. Now, my understanding is that the services were lightly used; in some cases, one passenger a day was using the services, and, obviously, in a rural area, it is going to be more difficult to have that critical mass of passengers. That's why we are doing the work, with a range of experts, to look at options for rural transport. Because I don't accept that modal shift is an urban agenda; it has to work in rural areas too, but will require a different suite of policies. But they will require funding.
Now, clearly, we're in a very short-term—. Well, we hope it's short term, but we're certainly in a funding crisis at the moment, and, as a result of the mismanagement of the economy, we're unlikely to see that change in the next few years. So, 'How do we bridge these services?', as Jane Dodds posed to the Senedd, is a really difficult question, and we're are working with Pembrokeshire County Council and the other local authorities to look at practical options. As I say, we are discussing with community transport as well, to see whether or not there are things that can be done.
On your questions in terms of the regional transport planning approach and the bus Bill, well, the reason that we're doing the work, the visioning document that Paul Davies referred to—which I did report on to the Senedd in a written statement earlier in the summer—is to inform the regional transport plans that will come out of the corporate joint committees with examples of things that can work in rural settings. That is absolutely what we want to see, but the funding situation remains a very, very challenging one, and I'm deeply sorry that the people who have come to rely on Bwcabus will not have that bus service in the future.
Once we have franchising, the whole point of that is that we take a strategic view. So, we map out where we need bus services to run, and the frequency of them, and build that into the franchising. So, across the whole franchise area, services can be cross-subsidised. So, a profitable service in a town can be used to prop up a loss-making service in a rural area. That's not currently allowed under the privatisation of the bus industry that we're still living with. That's why our reform is so important. It'll change the wiring of the system. It'll improve it. But it's only as good as the funding.

I have three more speakers. Until now, all Members have been from Mid and West Wales. I note that the three others are not from Mid and West Wales, so please ensure that your questions are focused on Bwcabus and the impact upon residents in Mid and West Wales. Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I also share the concern set out by Cefin Campbell around the situation in west Wales. It's heartbreaking to hear about the impact that this will have on individuals going to medical appointments and going shopping and so on and so forth. The Deputy Minister has already mentioned how the Fflecsi Bwcabus service is provided as part of the Fflecsi bus service by Transport for Wales, and I take into account what the Dirprwy Lywydd has just said, but that Fflecsi service also serves areas across Wales, including Conwy, Rhondda and areas of Blaenau Gwent in my region. I would ask the Deputy Minister, in light of this announcement, whether we could have clarity as to whether this specific announcement about the west of Wales will have any impact on the provision of these other bus services, which are part of the Fflecsi scheme. And if not, why is it communities in the west of Wales only that are impacted?

Lee Waters AC: Well, as I've explained, this particular service was funded by EU funding from the beginning, and there was a small contribution from the Welsh Government. Now that funding has fallen away, because we're also facing a real challenge with overall bus funding, it simply hasn't been possible to find such a large amount of money for a service that carried very few passengers. So, there was no money to extend it, but, even had there been money, the case was not a straightforward one.
So, the Fflecsi service more broadly we are still piloting and testing in different settings. That also is very challenging to fund, and we know that we face revenue shortfalls this financial year and next financial year, so I can't give any firm guarantees about its future for the rest of Wales. We will fight as hard as we can to safeguard as much of the funding as we can, because it's a scheme that we've created and we strongly believe in it and it has good outcomes. But I'm afraid the reality of austerity and the impact of Brexit are really coming together now and having a real impact on rural communities.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: People across the region and across Wales will want to know what this means for other services. For people in other parts of the region and beyond who hope to introduce new Fflecsiservices to make up for services that are currently being lost, what is the message here? Is there going to be support from Government for publicly funded services, or for social initiatives and enterprises and so on, to provide those sorts of links into the main bus routes, for example?

Lee Waters AC: Well, Rhun ap Iorwerth, as a party leader party to the co-operation agreement has seen the books, so to speak; he knows the state of the public finances and the state of Welsh Government budgets. So, he knows that our choices are severely constrained. This is not something we want to be doing, to be very clear about that. I would like to see Bwcabus continue and I'd like to see an expansion of the Fflecsi service. And I hope, in the medium to longer term, if we get a change of Government and we get a changing economic picture, we are able to build on that. I think the key now is to keep as many of the services going as possible, to build into those regional transport plans for the medium term a structure and a system that allows these services to be flexed and for them to be grown and scaled, as the resources become available. But I'm afraid, in the very immediate short term, our options are extremely limited.

And finally, Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you. As somebody who used to chair the European programme monitoring committee, I'm fully aware of the importance of this issue. Following the UK Government's raid on the regeneration fund and putting it into this shared prosperity fund, which forces local authorities to compete against each other rather than being able to have a holistic approach, and given that the fragility of bus services is something we've discussed, obviously, regularly in the last few months, I just wondered what insight you've got into whether these local authorities in Mid and West Wales have made any application in the latest round of bids for the shared prosperity fund for maintaining transport services that they must have been aware were fragile, given everything we've discussed up until now.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. It's a very good question and one of the things we're going to investigate with the authorities as we now try and find a way to keep some services going is what options there might be for applying for other funds. I'm not aware, off the top of my head, I'm afraid, of any applications there might be. But the broader issue that Jenny Rathbone touches on is an important one—the successor funding schemes post Brexit are not strategic across the UK, they're not based on need. We all remember the footage of Rishi Sunak saying,during the leadership contest, that he'd managed to get funding to Tunbridge Wells away from Labour areas.
Now, I think this is another example of, had there been a proper regional strategy and a regional policy in the UK Government, to look at where funding was most needed, then we would have found ourselves possibly in a different position. We haven't had that; instead, we've had a flurry of feasibility studies in Tory marginal seats in order to—. And I find the way that this process has been politicised to be most extraordinary compared to what we had before. Those of us familiar with the previous EU funding schemes knew that they were very robust, audited to death, and there was a strategic fit to them. None of those things can be said of the replacement scheme. So, I think there are question marks here for the Conservatives to answer, about how the system they told us would protect Wales has failed Wales, and here we have an example of people in rural Wales who are going to be now directly affected by that policy.

I thank the Deputy Minister. The final topical question comes from Paul Davies.

Withybush Hospital

Paul Davies AC: 2. Will the Minister make a statement on reports that Withybush hospital will be partially closed for most of 2024? TQ853

Eluned Morgan AC: I can confirm that, at present, six wards have needed to close due to the condition of the reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete planks found. The health board's work programme aims to reopen three of the affected wards by the end of December, with the remaining three expected to be reopened by the end of March 2024. Patients, visitors and staff safety is paramount, and necessary work is progressing across the hospital estate.

Paul Davies AC: As I'm sure you'll appreciate, Minister, recent reports that Withybush hospital will be partially closed for most of next year have deeply worried patients across Pembrokeshire, and understandably so. Now, I appreciate that the Welsh Government has provided support for the health board to tackle the two highest grades of RAAC at Withybush hospital, but there may be further incidences of lower grade RAAC, and so, there will undoubtedly have to be checks at regular intervals. So, Minister, can you tell us what medium-term and longer term support the Welsh Government is prepared to offer the health board, to tackle all incidences of RAAC at Withybush hospital?
The health board tell us that Withybush hospital has probably lost about 50 per cent of its beds, and I'm extremely concerned about the impact of this on the hospital's ability to deliver services over the winter period. Therefore, can you tell us what discussions has the Welsh Government had with the health board about its plans to cope with winter pressures, in light of the health board's public concerns about service delivery over the coming months? Has there been an assessment of the health board's ability to deliver services effectively in Pembrokeshire over the next few months, and what interventions, if any, will be made to help support the health board?
This is of course an extremely worrying time for patients and for staff too, and I'm sure you'll join me in thanking those who are continuing to work in such challenging conditions. It's vital that staff are consulted at every step of this journey, and that they are able to feed back concerns as quickly as possible. Therefore, perhaps you could tell us whether the Welsh Government has discussed the impact of RAAC on staff at Withybush hospital with the health board, and, if so, what outcomes have come from those specific discussions.
Moving forward, the chief executive of the health board is right to say that the priority now is to fix those areas with critical issues as soon as possible, so that wards can indeed reopen. It's vital that services at Withybush reopen as soon as it's safe to do so. As I've said before, it is important that the relocation of any services is a temporary move, and not an opportunity to once again centralise services away from Withybush hospital permanently. And so, finally, can you, Minister, confirm that all services that have been temporarily relocated will be returned to the hospital site once it's safe to do so? Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Well, I certainly understand the concerns of people who live locally, and it's a bitter blow when quite so many beds have been taken out. But I'm sure the Member would agree that the first and most important thing is to make sure that people are safe, because the last thing we want is people going in to an unsafe hospital.
That's why one of the things we've done is to make sure the Welsh Government agreed to £12.8 million on 29 August to address the issue of the most difficult areas in Withybush hospital, to make sure that the system was safe. Now, that's the first phase. More work needs to be done, of course, to assess what the long-term solution might be in relation to this, because we are talking about quite significant structural issues that need to be addressed. So, what we have done—. It's not an insignificant amount of money, £12.8 million. And of course, we haven't got any new money, so that—. You're aware that we had only £1 million in additional capital this year from the UK Government. So, that money has to come from the rest of the capital budget. So, I know, for example, that your colleagues are very often asking me to put more money into the issues in Betsi, for example, capital issues. The fact that we now have to find this money for Withybush means that we have to take it away from elsewhere. So, we do have to consider the whole of the Welsh NHS estate when it comes to this.
What I can tell you is that my officials have been having conversations with the health board in relation to what the short-term plans are, certainly across this winter, and medium-term plans. And I know that the local councils have been asked to step in and to step up to try and help, in particular with the issues relating to flow through the hospital, and that has always been quite a significant challenge there.
Staff at Withybush, I think, have been quite incredible in the way that they've responded to this. They have agreed, lots of them, to relocate to help out in the South Pembrokeshire Hospital. Others, I know, are taking long journeys to Bronglais, to make sure that they are helping patients who need that support. And one of the areas that's been significantly affected is the refectory in Withybush, and so, there have been alternatives put in place. And looking after staff is absolutely fundamental in any NHS institution.
So, of course, it is a challenging time. I think the health board has really stepped up and understood the significance of what's going on here, but I am hopeful that what we'll see is three wards reopening before the end of December, and then, hopefully, the rest of them reopened by the end of March.

Joyce Watson AC: I want to join with you, Minister, and Paul Davies, in thanking the staff for stepping up in what are the most challenging of times. There are two big issues here. One is the continuity of services, which has been asked about, what that looks like, and the reassurance for those people seeking those services. And, of course, the second key issue here is that of safety, which you've addressed. And the safety of the staff and the patients, and the people who will be entering that building is, of course, uppermost in all of our minds. The £13 million that has been given immediately by this Government to Hywel Dda to help them through this crisis, of course, shows our commitment to trying to keep that hospital functioning.
I think this raises the real question here about what services look like going forward. We haven't got a true cost yet of the extent of the capital that would need to be invested in this hospital. And when we do, I think, maybe, Minister, you would be able to help us to look at that true cost of trying to shore up the building. Paul Davies is quite right in saying that there are areas now where the damage is significant, but there are areas that might come to light further down the line. So, I think that a real cost-benefit analysis is called for here, in terms of the capital investment in the building against the capital investment in a new building.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Well, Joyce is quite right in terms of the importance of continuity of service for the people in that community. That's why I think it's really significant that the South Pembrokeshire Hospital has been used extensively now, and people seem to have really understood that there is a need to do that. Safety has got to be paramount when it comes to the NHS.
What do services look like going forward? This is a question that we've asked the health board. So, there's a clinical review being undertaken at the moment. What we're interested in, of course, and what the health board is interested in, is developing a new west Wales hospital. Now, we haven't taken a view on that as a Government yet, but the first thing to ensure is that the clinical model is appropriate and correct. And we now have a very different kind of approach to medicine and to the challenges that we have as a society. So, in the past, it was all about acute care; it was all about getting people out into hospitals, fixing them, getting them home. Today, what we're talking about is an ageing population, lots of them with very complex needs, who actually would prefer to have that care at home. So, we do have to make sure that any solution is one that looks very much to the future.
So, we have asked the health board to think, not just about that long term, but to think very carefully and creatively about what the short term and medium term might look like. Because, irrespective of any aspiration for a new hospital, there's a long way to go before that would be up and running. So, what is the medium-term solution? So, that is something we've asked and has been tested out with my officials earlier this week.

Cefin Campbell AS: Thank you to Paul Davies for posing the question.

Cefin Campbell AS: Minister, in a written statement earlier this month, you said that the Standing Committee on Structural Safety had highlighted significant concerns around the safety of properties with RAAC as early as May 2019. Why, therefore, has it taken four years to reach the point where work is finally being carried out to replace RAAC planks?
And in Withybush specifically, there is a very real risk that the £12.8 million of funding given to Hywel Dda to start the remediation work at the hospital will be a short-term sticking plaster, and, as other speakers have alluded to already, by funding only the immediate replacement of the planks that are currently high risk, it means that the hospital will be subject to constant surveys and possible remedial works for years to come. So, the impact on patients and staff cannot be avoided of course, with 50 per cent of beds in Withybush already having been lost. So, will the Government ensure that further funding will be available to replace all the RAAC planks, as has been recommended by experts?
And finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, what this RAAC crisis really shows is that west Wales is crying out for long-term healthcare investment. And in light of that, I was really disappointed to learn that work on the new hospital in west Wales will not now begin until 2031, as opposed to 2029 as originally planned. So, what can Welsh Government do to accelerate the process of building a badly needed new hospital to place healthcare in west Wales on a sustainable footing and to avoid the provision of health services being spread too thinly?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Well, I can assure you that in 2019, in May, that alert came from the Standing Committee on Structural Safety and, immediately, officials engaged with NHS Wales about the potential risks posed by the presence of RAAC. So, that started immediately in 2019. And it took from 2019 through to 2022 to undertake the investigations in relation to RAAC. So, those have been undertaken. That’s why it didn’t actually come as a huge shock to us because, actually, this work has been carried out since that time. So, I think, actually, we were fairly well sighted on what was likely to come.
As we go deeper into the investigations and the structural work, we may find more, but I think we're fairly confident that the worst of the RAAC has been identified in Wales. The next question, as you say, is, 'Right, can you guarantee us that you're going to have the money to fix it all?' I can't guarantee anything in the current financial situation—we're extremely challenged—and, in particular, as you say, when you have to balance out, 'Right, if you were to spend all that money on shoring up a situation, then it wouldn't be available to do other things in the medium to long term.'
So, just in terms of the new hospital, there is a process that has to be gone through. That process is going through the system; it’s going through the official and formal channels. There is a clinical review that’s being undertaken, as I explained to Joyce, that, actually, you just need to make sure that the clinical model that they’re proposing stands up to scrutiny. There’s been an independent third party looking at that just to make sure that it does actually stand up to what the future of healthcare might look like. So, there’s a lot of work to do and that’s why I think it's important to understand that these things don't happen overnight. We've been talking about it for a very long time, I understand that. There have been some bumps in the road, even to get to this point, as you'll be aware, and we are not in a position to give a decision in relation to that still.

I thank the Minister.

Point of order from Darren Millar.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm sure the Minister didn't intend to mislead the Chamber, but she claimed that the Welsh Government had only been given £1 million-worth of capital expenditure to spend in the current financial year. That, of course, is not the case. According to your Government's own figures, the final budget for the capital allocation to your department, Minister, was £340 million in 2022-23, and in the current financial year, it's £375 million, which, of course, is an increase of £35 million. So, I would like the Minister to correct the record.

I think you've done it already, Darren, so we'll leave it at that.

4. 90-second Statements

Item 4 is the 90-second statements. First of all, Russell George.

Russell George AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Today is World Pharmacists Day, a day when we can recognise the significant contribution of pharmacists in our health service. We know they're highly skilled and knowledgeable professionals, bringing both clinical and scientific expertise to the NHS. As experts in the safe and effective use of medicines, they play a crucial role as the first point of call for common ailments and health advice in community pharmacies.
For us, in this Chamber—I'm pleased the Minister has stayed to hear this as well—we have a role to make sure that pharmacists feel supported, appreciated and valued. This means having the right level of staffing, the right skills mix in their teams and to have the opportunities for career development. We know from the Royal Pharmaceutical Society that this is currently not always the case, sadly. So, we must also, of course, challenge the Government to ensure that they make the full use of pharmacists' skills.
In 2026, all pharmacist graduates will be qualified prescribers, so how do we make the full use of this resource for the fundamental challenges facing healthcare, which include avoidable hospital admissions, management of chronic conditions and the global challenges, as well, like resistance to antibiotics? Pharmacy has a huge role to play, but today, I ask you all to join me in saying a heartfelt 'thank you' to all our pharmacists in Wales.

Rhys ab Owen AS: After the disappointment of the 1979 referendum, my father and others were very keen to do something positive to lift the spirits of Welsh speakers in our capital city. The intention was to create a Welsh-speaking club, like our friends in Pontypridd, who wanted to do a similar thing. In one fundraising campaign, my parents met. Regular gigs started to be put on; in due course, after looking at a number of different venues, the British Legion Club was bought in September 1983.Great fun was had in taking down the union jack and removing plaques bearing names such as the Queen Elizabeth Jubilee Room.Yes, the British Legion became Clwb Ifor Bach, taking a name that had been forgotten to all intents and purposes, namely Ifor ap Meurig, who climbed the tower of Cardiff castle, a stone’s throw from Womanby Street, to capture the Earl of Gloucester until he agreed to return land back to Wales in upper Glamorgan.
My father loved meeting couples who had met at Clwb Ifor Bach, and he liked to say that clwb Ifor couples lived in every part of Wales. I believe, Dirprwy Lywydd, that one Member here worked as a bouncer on the door, and another Member worked behind the bar. You can guess who those people are. Clwb Ifor Bach has changed a lot over the last 40 years. It's faced many challenges, but has overcome them too, and it's great to see the exciting expansion plans.Happy birthday, clwb Ifor. Onwards to another half century. Thank you.

Thank you, both.

5. Motion to amend Standing Orders—The making of statutory instruments following EU withdrawal

Item 5 is the proposal to amend Standing Orders—the making of statutory instruments following EU withdrawl. I call on Heledd Fychan to formally move the motion on behalf of the Business Committee.

Motion NDM8363 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 33.2:
1. Considers the report of the Business Committee, Amending Standing Orders: The making of statutory instruments following EU withdrawal, laid in the Table Office on 20 September 2023.
2. Approves the proposals to amend Standing Orders 21, 27, 30B and 30C, as set out in Annex A of the Business Committee’s report.

Motion moved.

Heledd Fychan AS: Formally.

I have no speakers onthis item, so the proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv)—Full devolution of water

The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Janet Finch-Saunders.

Item 6 is a Member debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv)—full devolution of water. I call on Rhys ab Owen to move the motion.

Motion NDM8274 Rhys ab Owen, Mike Hedges, Jane Dodds
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Calls on the Welsh Government to formally request the UK Government to commence section 48(1) of the Wales Act 2017, which would align the boundary for legislative competence for water with the national border.
2. Calls on the Welsh Government to formally request the powers for the licensing of a water supply or sewerage licensee thereby fully devolving water to Wales.

Motion moved.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. Wales is famous for its water:
'Water flows across the nation',
as Huw Jones said,
'Where my mother and father / And my brothers and sisters / And I lived'.
Yes, water is a very live political issue here in Wales. It could be argued that the drowning of Welsh communities led to the national awakening that eventually led to the establishment of this place. But I don't want to dwell too much on the past. Yesterday has gone; it cannot be changed, but we have the ability today to improve things for the lives of the people of Wales and our nation's environment.
Westminster control over Wales's resources isn't as obvious today as it was in the 1960s, but the gaps in our legislation enable companies to continue to use our nation's water to generate significant profits, whilst Welsh people's bills continue to increase.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Wales, yet again, is unique in its lack of ability to control its own water. In Scotland and Northern Ireland, the powers relating to water and sewage have been fully devolved. By supporting this motion, we’ll be asking the Welsh Government to make the formal request required to initiate the full devolution of water in Wales, and we should have done this a very long time ago.
The argument I aim to make today is one based on fairness, the famous Welsh approach of chwarae teg; that Wales should be in control of its own water, and that we should be able to decide what best to do with it. Crucially, I believe we should be able to bring our Victorian waste infrastructure into the twenty-first century without any barriers, be that from companies or from Westminster. Recent years have shown just how fragile the waterways of Wales and England really are. This is an important issue, which will only become more pressing as the climate crisis worsens.
The first part of this motion calls for the Welsh Government to take initiative in requesting Westminster to commence section 48(1) of the Wales Act 2017, giving us the legislative competence over our own water. As it currently stands in Wales, our nationalised water company, Dŵr Cymru, despite straddling the border of England and Wales, can only serve the people of Wales. Meanwhile the private Severn Trent, based in Coventry, is permitted to export water from north-east Wales to the south-west of England. United Utilities, serving the north of England, is reportedly licenced to take the equivalent of 100 Olympic swimming pools of water a day from north Wales to supply Liverpool and Cheshire. And who gets to keep these profits? It’s not the people of Wales but the large private water companies.
I’m sure we can remember that last year, Wales experienced a country-wide drought, threatening our agricultural sector, food security, and natural biodiversity. The UK food security report found that in 2020, wheat yields had dropped 40 per cent due to drought. The question I raise is why are we allowing companies to export our water at massive profits whilst the people of Wales face expensive bills and our crops and livestock suffer.
Commencing section 48(1) will allow us to set the operating area for Wales-exclusive water to match our geographical border, and as a result, will ensure more fairness in its sale and its distribution. I’ll make it clear: this isn’t about blocking off Liverpool, Manchester, and the south-west of England from having good-quality water; I’m not suggesting that for one moment. But the Welsh people should be able to see the rewards of exporting our water. In 2022, senior Tories floated the idea of taking water from Lake Vyrnwy in Powys to use to sort out drought in south-east England. I’m not against that, but surely we should be paid for it.
The second part of this motion calls for a formal request to be put forward for powers around sewage and water supply to become devolved, essentially completing the devolution of water to Wales.
Alun Davies has, on many occasions, raised his concerns about the gap in legislation that allows sewage to be dumped too often in our waterways. There have been plenty of headlines in recent years about the deterioration of our rivers. We have individuals starting to test rivers, such as the River Wye, because they had noticed the lack of salmon in the river over the past few years.
Delyth Jewell said a few months ago that Wales has an abundance of natural resources, including water, but the power to control these resources is currently locked away in Westminster. This really, really shouldn't be a partisan issue. Much like HS2, we as a Senedd should acknowledge that this is just wrong.
It's a real shame that the Welsh Government asked Westminster five years ago to delay devolving water due to complexity. I really can't see that argument. The Danube passes through nine countries and four capitals. There are no concerns about complexity there. So what are the practical consequences of this delay? We had phosphate pollution in the River Dee, we had raw sewage pumped into Denbighshire's rivers and sea 452 times last year, we have untreated faeces, wet wipes and urine flowing through Bryngarw Country Park, and those are just a few instances and examples, Dirprwy Lywydd.
Last year, Dŵr Cymru released 600,000 hours, the equivalent of 68 years, of sewage into rivers, lakes and seas in Wales. They say it's too expensive to improve the Victorian sewage system in Wales, which during periods of heavy rain causes untreated sewage to spill into Welsh water sources. However, they didn't seem to have complaints about costs when paying their chief executive £232,000-worth of bonuses in 2022. We need sewage and water supply to be devolved in Wales so that we can completely upgrade our waterworks, fix the issue of Victorian sewers that are costing not just the Welsh consumer but the environment dearly also.
The Minister for Climate Change has said that the new Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill is intended to make Wales a cleaner, healthier place to live, but until we have control of our sewage system and until we can stop our water being exported when it's so desperately required, that will remain a pipe dream. I call on the Welsh Government to put their money where their mouth is, to join our colleagues in Scotland and Northern Ireland in completing the devolution of water in Wales. If it's not too complex for them, it certainly shouldn't be too complex for us. Diolch yn fawr.

I have selected the amendment to the motion and I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move amendment 1, tabled in her name.

The following amendment appeared on the agenda:

Amendment 1—Janet Finch-Saunders
Delete all and replace with
1. Notes that the Welsh Government requested to postpone the enactment of section 48(1) of the Wales Act 2017.
2. Acknowledges that in a letter addressed to the UK Government in 2018, the Welsh Government said the process of aligning the Senedd’s legislative competence to geographical boundaries was complex.
3. Welcomes the willingness of the Secretary of State for Wales and the UK Government to work with their Welsh counterparts to agree a timetable that works best for both governments and the water industry.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I'm actually not going to move my amendment, but I will speak to the motion.
When I read this motion, however, presented by our colleagues Rhys, Jane and Mike, the first thing I thought was 'déjà-vu' because it was only three months ago that we debated the full devolution of water. The Plaid Cymru motion at that time then called on the Welsh Government to
'a) formally request the enactment of section 48(1) of the Wales Act 2017, which would fully align the Senedd’s legislative competence over water with the geographic boundary of Wales;
'b) formally request further powers over the licensing of sewage undertakers in Wales'.
So, the truth of the matter is that three months ago it was a fact that the Welsh Government requested to postpone the enactment of section 48(1) of the Wales Act 2017. In a letter addressed to the UK Government in 2018, Hannah Blythyn MS—[Interruption.] What? Oh, Blythyn. Hannah Blythyn MS said that the process of aligning the Senedd's legislative competence to geographical boundaries was complex. So, having originally been set to commence in 2020, the Welsh Government themselves sought to postpone this until spring 2022. Reasons such as amending legislation, statutory plans and resolving complex licensing and regulatory issues were cited by the Welsh Government. Now, on 15 May 2023, the Rt Hon David Davies MP, Secretary of State for Wales, stated:
'My Department will work with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and the Welsh Government to agree a timetable for commencing section 48(1) of the Wales Act 2017 that best meets the needs of both governments and the water industry.'
So, the message is simple: the UK Government is willing to co-operate and is now waiting for the Welsh Government to go ahead. On 7 July 2023, the Minister for Climate Change informed the Senedd, and I quote:
'Nothing has happened since we asked for the delay, but what I'm saying, as a result of this debate, is I will go away and have a better look at why we've settled on the protocol and not taken that further.'
So, if any good is to come from this debate today, I hope that it will be some clarity from the Minister as to whether anything has happened over the last three months, and in particular whether the Welsh Government has decided that it does not want any further delay. Should that decision have been made, we'd be pleased to learn.
Also, what approach have you developed so as to have a minimal impact on our customers? What approach have you developed so as to have a minimal impact on water companies? And how are you overcoming the fact that provision for alignment has not even been made in the planning for the 2020-25 business plans? Will changes be made to the licence of Welsh Water, to enable the one company to operate within two legislative and regulatory frameworks? Have you identified which legislation and statutory plans require amending, and if so, will you detail all of them? So, I say to my colleagues—Rhys, Jane and Mike—really it will be interesting to see just how the Welsh Government respond to this debate today. Diolch yn fawr.

Janet, just for clarity, you are not moving your amendment and therefore there will be no vote on it—is that right?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I'm not moving my amendment.

Thank you. Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I fully support the devolution of water to the Welsh Government. Further devolution of powers over water would enable Welsh Ministers to more effectively address the problem of sewage discharge into Wales's rivers and seas, and don't we have a lot of that? The privatisation of water is a failed model. It has led to soaring bills and a disastrous deterioration in the quality of Wales's water.
This debate is not one we should be having. It is happening because we have a devolution settlement in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland and to the English metro mayors that are fundamentally different. In the USA, you do not have states asking for more powers—or we haven't since 1865. In Germany, individual Länder have not asked for more powers from the German central Government. This is because those and other federal countries have the same powers held at each level. What do I expect from this debate? The Conservatives to oppose it and oppose any further devolution. Plaid Cymru to see it as a further step to separatism and fully support it. I support the middle ground of devo max and the same devolution settlements to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, plus the metropolitan English mayors. Scotland's public drinking water and sewerage services are provided by Scottish Water, a public company accountable to Scottish Ministers and the Scottish Parliament. Scottish Water is a public corporation that delivers a publicly owned water and sewerage service to the people of Scotland.
I believe in the public ownership of utilities. I do not stand alone. Conservative Prime Ministers such as Winston Churchill, Anthony Eden, Harold Macmillan, Alec Douglas-Home and Ted Heath also supported the public ownership of utilities and the public ownership of water. In Scotland, the water industry unions, through the Scottish TUC, commissioned a report from the public interest research network at the University of Strathclyde on Scottish water and the drift to privatisation and how democratisation could improve efficiency at lower cost. That report highlighted a pressure to privatise Scotland's water and analysed the alternatives to the current structure. What Scotland did was fight against that privatisation. There's pressure all over the world—we're not immune to it—to privatise things. The fact that privatisation has not worked anywhere is totally immaterial: 'The next place, it will.' It's almost like when we used to split countries into two, because that would make things so much better. The fact it never worked anywhere is immaterial; that didn't stop us keeping on doing it and keeping on partitioning countries.
The failure of private water companies in the developing world is leading to a renewed pressure on Governments to privatise the more profitable water markets in the developed world. I mean, how complicated is the devolution of water in Wales? Well, Senedd Cymru—. And I'll read this all out, because I think it really identifies just how problematic things are.
'Senedd Cymru generally has legislative competence in relation to all aspects of water quality, water resources and water industry.'
So far, so good.
'This is subject to the reservations in Schedule 7A to the Government of Wales Act 2006 (GoWA 2006). Senedd Cymru's competence in relation to the water industry in particular must be read in light of the reservations in section C15 (water and sewerage) ofSchedule 7Ato GoWA 2006. These reservations provide that Senedd Cymru does not have competence to do anything which relates to the: appointment and regulation of any water or sewerage undertaker whose area is not wholly or mainly in Wales...licensing and regulation of any licensed water supplier (this reservation is subject to an exception for regulation of water or sewerage licensee in relation to licensed activities using the supply or sewerage system of a water or sewerage undertaker whose area is wholly or mainly in Wales – i.e. the Senedd has competence in relation to the regulation of water and sewerage licensees using the systems of undertakers operating wholly or mainly in Wales).'
Well, I think that is probably somewhere a long way away from what I would call a simple of rules. We've got this all the time, don't we, when we look at devolution? Every time we think it's being simplified, it isn't. Our view is it's easily simplified—all water in Wales should be the responsibility of the Welsh Government, no 'ands', 'ors' or 'buts', or anything else. Don't forget, before 1973, the councils used to manage water, and, can I say, very successfully?
Finally, we need to get devolution right for the people of Wales. Water is an example where it does not work effectively. We need a road map to achieving devo max and not let the debate be between those who wish to abolish the Senedd and those who want independence.
The final point I would like to make is that we always think we're different. Delyth Jewell's predecessor often said, 'Why do we think we're different in Wales? How do you think other countries manage?' And I know Rhys mentioned a number of countries the Danube went through. My knowledge of geography is great enough to tell you all the countries the Rhine goes through, but we do know, don't we, that lots of countries have rivers going through them, and it doesn't seem to cause any problem at all? Yet, British exceptionalism means it causes a problem here. I urge Members to support the motion.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you to Rhys for raising this issue today.

Jane Dodds AS: For me there are two major matters here. One is that there are people, there are individuals that are making money from natural resources. Secondly, we want more powers in Wales to control everything that is within Wales. Following on from my colleague Mike talking about devo max, I think you might be joining the Liberal Democrats, actually, Mike, if that's actually your position. You're virtually here. [Laughter.] Aligning water legislation with Wales's borders is more than symbolic. It would give Wales greater control to ensure water resources benefit its people, environment and its future, rather than just transferring natural resources out of Wales through infrastructure decisions that don't benefit our Welsh communities.
Our water is currently extracted by private companies for external profit rather than benefiting Wales, with billions of litres, including 385 million litres from my home county of Powys alone, leaving Wales each year for actually minimum returns. Wales should control its own natural resources and not tolerate this ongoing extraction for others' financial gain. Powys County Council implemented a proposal for a water levy, which actually could mean that Wales could raise vital funds into the future. We need those funds here in Wales. It's absolutely essential, because we need to invest in our water infrastructure. Dŵr Cymru put the bill for fixing storm overflows and flooding infrastructure at somewhere between £9 billion and £27 billion. A water levy, surely, could help fund those repairs, rather than raising the cost of bills for customers, people who are already struggling with their bills right now. Importantly, without controlling our water resources, Wales can't fully address river pollution. While pollution may be under devolved authority, if providers don't operate mainly in Wales, the Senedd lacks the tools to ensure they work towards shared environmental goals.
Devolution offers an opportunity to establish robust legal sewage management plans, holding providers accountable, which surely is crucial, as Welsh ratepayers currently bear the cost of addressing years of underinvestment in sewage treatment. We can't rely on the UK Conservative Government and regulators to protect our rivers, especially considering the alarming rate of over 800 daily sewage discharges in England. And this month the Office for Environmental Protection initiated an investigation into potential complicity of the UK Government and regulators in sewage release law violations.
Water from Wales should not be subject to the systemic negligence and extractive policies of the UK Government and its regulators. Whilst past Welsh Government responses to these debates has been more collaborative, without substantial action, the Government here risks appearing insincere on environmental governance.
Since the last debate here, which Janet Finch-Saunders mentioned, Dŵr Cymru was downgraded by NRW to a two-star rating, and yesterday only, the water regulator, Ofwat, officially stated that Dŵr Cymru failed to meet its key pollution targets last year, classifying the company as 'lagging behind'. Back in May the First Minister indicated there was a need to review Dŵr Cymru to see if it had actually delivered on the benefits initially proposed and promised when formed, a sentiment that I would agree with wholeheartedly. Therefore, I urge all Members to support this motion, and I look forward to hearing from the Minister, particularly hearing why devolving this particular area wouldn't help to address both river pollution and to raise funds for our much-needed coffers. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Delyth Jewell AC: I would like to welcome today's motion, and I thank Rhys for tabling it. Thank you also to Mike for mentioning Steffan Lewis. Yes, indeed, why do we in Wales have to be different? So, thank you very much, Mike, for mentioning Steffan.
The issue of water has an emotional and powerful resonance in Wales's modern politics, as Rhys set out. The inundation of Capel Celyn in the 1960s led to the displacement of an entire community, and that amplified the expression of a wider sense of injustice due to the exploitation and disenfranchisement of Wales and her people. It's a feeling that remains to this day, because the reality is, even though we now have a devolved Parliament, a Senedd—and I'd agree with Rhys that you could make the point that this Senedd exists as a result of the politics around water—but, despite that, Wales continues to be sold short, as they say in English, as a result of our fundamentally subordinate status within this British union.
The failed model of privatisation within the water industry has also, as Mike mentioned, contributed to the grievous state of our rivers and our seas. At present, some 45 per cent of Wales's rivers are classified as being in a good ecological condition. The fundamental point here is the unequal devolution settlement across these isles has left Wales at a specific disadvantage compared to the other devolved nations. The lack of effective legislative controls over our water resources has enabled private companies to profit from the enormous quantities of water that are transferred from Wales every year, with precious few consequential benefits to our communities.
This example, namely control over water, underlines the point unequivocally: whilst the legislative competencies of Scotland and Northern Ireland over their water resources—the point has been made—correspond fully with their geographical boundaries, Wales's devolved powers in this policy area are based on the 'wholly or mainly' model set out in the Government of Wales Act 2006. This means that the Senedd cannot regulate the transfer of water by private companies that operate across the border. This includes, as we've heard, companies such as Severn Dee, which supplies around 115,000 homes in mid Wales, and United Utilities, which holds the water extraction licence for the Llyn Efyrnwy reservoir.
And although the Wales Act 2017 amended the devolved framework slightly by establishing an inter-governmental protocol on the transfer of water across the border, the protocol is designed only to ensure that there is no serious adverse impact on water resources, water supply or on the quality of water in both nations. Nor does it mention the commercial transfer of water. Over the past few years, as has been mentioned, the Welsh Government has criticised Westminster and the lack of respect shown by them to devolution, and it has been quite right in doing so. I would agree with that. But the First Minister referred to the harmful power imbalance that exists here. The First Minister has been right in coming to the conclusion that the status quo constitutionally is, put simply, unsustainable, no matter what party is in Government in Downing Street. But action must be taken not just when circumstances allow, but when circumstances demand that action be taken, and it's unfortunate that the actions of the Welsh Government itself have failed to deliver vital results when it comes to Wales's powers over water.
We know that the Welsh Government has postponed consideration of powers over water until the spring of 2022. There has been little, if any, further correspondence between the two Governments on this issue. It appears that even this delayed date has fallen by the wayside. It's therefore clear that the lack of progress on further devolution of powers over water has been caused in part by the Welsh Government dragging its feet.
To conclude, Dirprwy Lywydd, I would say that we must muster the strength and the will to drive and to urge change. We must take the rare and valuable opportunities that arise for change when they do present themselves. We must have a solution urgently.

I call on the Minister for Climate Change, Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Thank you very much for the opportunity to respond to this debate today, and, as I'm sure you're aware, Dirprwy Lywydd, and, as many Members have already mentioned, we have already discussed the devolution of water in this Siambr just recently, in June.
Today's motion has near-identical points to the previous motion, which the Welsh Government supported, with some amendments we added, which were then voted through. So, on that basis, we will support the motion again today, although many of the arguments I've heard today from Members are actually about taking water into state ownership, which is, of course, a very different animal indeed. [Interruption.] The points I—. Well, but it's not, unfortunately, what we're debating.
The points I made in June still stand. I agree that Wales should have full control over its water resources, but I want to reiterate that the ongoing process of devolution means this is already essentially the case. Our relationship with the water companies operating in Wales and Natural Resources Wales and Ofwat as regulators is only one element of all of that. For example, we are all working together, alongside the Consumer Council for Water, the Drinking Water Inspectorate and independent challenge groups, to ensure a collaborative approach for the current price review process, or PR24, as it's known. We aim to deliver on our shared cross-sector ambition for Wales for an increased focus on long-term resilience, greater environmental and social value, and delivery of high-quality services to customers and communities.
I'm sure many of you have seen the Ofwat annual performance report, which was published yesterday. The report provides an assessment of water companies in relation to all areas of operation. Both Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water and Hafren Dyfrdwy need to address areas of performance where they lag behind industry average. Those areas include water supply interruption, leakage management and delivering reductions in per capita consumption, or daily water usage, in lay person's terms. It is good to see that Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water has the highest ratings of customer satisfaction, providing services to vulnerable customers and reacting to unplanned outages and repairs. And they were sector leading for tackling internal sewer flooding. However, it's quite clear that both companies need to do a lot more to get themselves out of the categories they're in, with Hafren Dyfrdwy only having one more score at average than Dŵr Cymru, and only narrowly avoiding, therefore, being in the lagging category—so, just not a good performance at all.
We expect the water companies in Wales to work much harder to deliver excellent services to customers across all areas of operation. My officials are working closely with the water companies in Wales, and with Ofwat, to ensure they are addressing all areas of concern. And I do know, of course, that Members are keen to see the commencement of section 48(1) of the Wales Act 2017 as soon as possible. I would just point out, though, that the creation of Hafren Dyfrdwy really does mean that there are no longer any water companies operating mainly in England who also operate in Wales. In other words, the main purpose of the powers under section 48(1) have already been delivered without the need to commence the provision. Nevertheless, the Welsh Government is committed to follow up on this work, which I committed to during the June debate. My officials have begun the process of considering next steps, including scoping out the full implications on other legislation. This is a significant resource-intensive and painstaking process, and we must make sure that the devolution settlement fully delivers on its intentions. It's not a change that can be brought about just overnight.

Julie James AC: Members here do not need me to tell them about the nature of water as a precious resource or its symbolism within the wider devolution debate. What I will say, though, is that the Welsh Government's approach here is a pragmatic one. We already use our powers to require all strategic water infrastructure investments affecting Wales, including any transfers, to benefit Wales's communities and natural environment. Wales's water companies have a statutory duty to provide a secure supply of water and demonstrate how they will do this through the water resource management plans, which have a 25-year life span. Meanwhile, water companies wholly or mainly in Wales, of which both are, must follow Welsh Government's guiding principles, and Welsh Ministers have a statutory role in the sign-off process for any transfer plans. 
All of this is grounded in the 2018 inter-governmental protocol between the Welsh and UK Governments. However, as I highlighted again in June, Dirprwy Lywydd, the chief pressures on the future of Wales's water resources are not the transferring of water beyond our border but those pressures arising from activities within our border, namely waste water run-off, urban run-off, misconnections, diffuse rural pollution, physical modifications, abandoned mines and invasive species. We are utilising our powers over water in Wales to address these issues and not shying away from any of our responsibilities in these areas.
For example, a key area that many of you will be familiar with is the issue of phosphorus in our special area of conservation river catchments. At our most recent river pollution summit in March, all key sectors, including water, housing, planning, agriculture, agreed to an action plan that aims to unlock critical social housing developments. Since then, we've continued to work closely with partners to drive forward improvement in our river water quality. We've provided our nutrient management boards with up to £1.1 million in funding for 2023-24 to support the delivery of priority actions in failing SAC river catchments, and we've also provided funding to speed up NRW's review of permits so that local planning authorities can make planning decisions sooner. So, for example, Dirprwy Lywydd, a new permit for Five Fords water treatment works could unlock nearly 3,000 dwellings, which would be a major proportion of the applications held in abeyance in the Dee catchment. The example in the Dee demonstrates that we can unlock critical developments without needing to change the goalposts around nutrient neutrality.
And I want to just take this opportunity to emphasise that the Welsh Government has absolutely no intention of rowing back on our environmental protections in the way the UK Government is trying to do. In Wales, we remain committed to the health of our rivers and are clear there will be no regression of environmental standards here. In 2019, we became the first country to introduce a mandatory requirement for sustainable drainage systems, or SuDS as they're called, on all new developments. Not only do SuDS support our net zero, biodiversity and well-being objectives, they're an important means of relieving pressure on the sewage network and, in turn, have a positive impact on issues like combined sewer overflows, as well as intercepting many pollutants from highways and other hard surface areas. With our SuDS regime, we will increase and enhance the community open spaces in our villages, towns and cities, making Wales a cleaner, greener place in which to live and work for current and future generations. 
And meanwhile, returning to our rivers, we know from recent evidence published by Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water and validated by NRW that rural land use is the leading contributor of phosphorus pollution in six of Wales's nine SAC rivers—62 per cent—including four of the five SAC rivers that are currently failing phosphate targets. Phosphorus pollution clearly dominates land use planning considerations in a number of predominantly rural areas, because the levels of pollution are above set thresholds. This further reinforces the need for a multi-sector team Wales approach to securing the long-term future of Wales's water resources. The sustainable farming scheme announced by the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd, in July includes several actions to help address this, covering benchmarking, soil management and biosecurity. These are designed to help improve farmers' productivity, cut costs and improve the sustainability of farm businesses in line with the requirements of the new water resources regulations. Meanwhile, alongside NRW and DC WW, we are also exploring a unified approach to catchment consenting in failing SAC rivers, which will be required as part of the First Minister's river pollution action plan. This involves a review of approaches in other administrations and better understanding of the regulatory framework needed to support catchment permitting approaches in failing SAC rivers.
It's not just key sectors who have a role to play, though. Our team Wales approach also extends to the public, and I’m keen too that we continue to capitalise on our progress to consider and draw in citizen science where appropriate. This additional perspective helps us to take into account and better understand the challenges we face, and I’m very grateful to NRW for following up on this work.
Dirprwy Lywydd, I’m not claiming here that we have solved all our water resources issues yet. We have an awful long way to go. But the progress we have made to date is precisely because we have used our powers to decide our own ambition, set our own direction, and deliver for the needs of our own communities, and that’s what matters most. Diolch.

I call on Rhys ab Owen to reply to the debate.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you very much to everyone who has contributed to this debate this afternoon.

Rhys ab Owen AS: In the spirit of unity, Janet, I will concentrate in my closing on what I agree with you on, and I agree with you completely on the need for clarity—I’m not sure whether we had that today—clarity for us as Members of the Senedd, water companies, and, more importantly, for the people of Wales. As Mike Hedges said, the privatisation of water is a failed model, as agreed with Delyth and Jane Dodds. It’s good of Mike, in his usual, interesting speech, to cite Winston Churchill as a supporter of our position. I agree with Mike, and Mike constantly says this in the Siambr, that the asymmetrical model of devolution simply doesn’t work. I can’t understand unionists who are in support of devolution being in support of the asymmetrical model of devolution. It is, as Mike said, British exceptionalism indeed, quoting the late Steffan Lewis.
Now, Jane Dodds began by inviting Mike to join the Lib Dems. I can’t see from here whether Mike has crossed the floor to sit next to Jane, but, be that as it may, both agreed on most other points in this debate. Jane gave us examples of where additional funds could be spent in Wales to improve infrastructure and, through that, assist the people most in need in Wales, the people who are really struggling, seeing their bills increasing year on year. Jane also raised the important point of the increase in accountability with full devolution of water. What we have at the moment simply isn’t good enough accountability. Who is holding these companies fully to account with regard to sewage, with regard to the polluting of our waterways?

Rhys ab Owen AS: Delyth Jewell reminded us very robustly of the injustices of the past, and the strong emotions that are still felt to this day. As she said, to follow up on what Mike said, the disproportionality in terms of devolution in Wales is letting Wales down once again. We’re being left behind once again, as with the Crown Estate, as with justice. Why is it that Wales is the poor relation every time? Why do we always lose out? The status quo, as Delyth Jewell reminded us, isn’t working, and it’s a shame to see ideological reasons in Westminster being used to prevent a change that would improve the lives of the people of Wales.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Minister, I’m pleased you will support this motion. We can also agree that water companies need to improve the way they deliver services to the people of Wales, as Jane Dodds also mentioned. I accept the view that, of course, things cannot be done overnight; however, this has been discussed since 2017, and a timetable would be very helpful with regard to the transfer plans.
David T.C. Davies, the Secretary of State, said in 2021,
‘when it comes to dealing with the impact of pollution on the quality of our rivers...devolution is making matters more complicated.’
Devolution is making matters more complicated—that’s the view of them down the road in Westminster. I’m sure we can all unite together to agree that, in fact, it’s the lack of devolution that is making things more complicated, and is making it more likely that our waterways are being polluted, and the bills of the Welsh people are increasing year on year. I urge all Members to support this motion. Diolch yn fawr.

And for Rhys's information, Mike did not move his seat and move across the Chamber.

As the amendment was not moved, the proposal is to agree the motion—[Interruption.]

I haven't asked yet. [Laughter.]

Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there are objections. We will therefore defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

7. Debate on petition P-06-1332 'Fund vaccine research to protect red squirrels from deadly Squirrelpox virus'

Item 7 today is a debate on petition P-06-1332, 'Fund vaccine research to protect red squirrels from deadly Squirrelpox virus'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion, Jack Sargeant.

Motion NDM8359 Jack Sargeant
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the petition P-06-1332 'Fund vaccine research to protect red squirrels from deadly Squirrelpox virus' which received 11,306 signatures.

Motion moved.

Jack Sargeant AC: Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. On behalf of the Petitions Committee, thank you for the opportunity to introduce this debate today.

Jack Sargeant AC: Llywydd, this is not the first time that this Senedd has debated a petition concerning the red squirrel, and we know well the passion and the compassion that many have in this chamber for it. We have previously considered two other petitions: P-06-1208, 'New laws to protect rare red squirrels from habitat loss which causes population decline’; and P-06-1225, 'Make Natural Resources Wales undertake and publish annual wildlife surveys before felling woodland'. Presiding Officer, they were both completed in 2022, with positive responses from the Minister and the Welsh Government.
Llywydd, our very own bright and bushy-tailed super furry animal, Mr Darren Millar, is well known as Wales’s official species champion for the red squirrel. But I’m sure he won’t be alone today in championing the importance of finding a vaccine to protect our red squirrel population from the deadly squirrelpox,which represents an existential threat to their ongoing survival.
The petition that we are debating today was created by the other great champion of red squirrels in Wales, Dr Craig Shuttleworth. It's titled, 'Fund vaccine research to protect red squirrels from deadly Squirrelpox virus', and it reads, Presiding Officer:
'Squirrelpox virus is carried and spread by grey squirrels. It doesn't harm them. When red squirrels are infected they develop open extensive skin lesions and die a painful death within two weeks
'In North Wales, 70-80% of the Gwynedd red population was lost in a 2020/21 outbreak...
'Promising research by Moredun Institute into a vaccine ran out of funds...
'The Wales Red Squirrel Conservation Plan...highlights that most Welsh red squirrels are in forests inhabited by grey squirrels. Pox virus is thus a major threat in Wales...
'In Bangor, there have been repeated Squirrelpox virus outbreaks in the period 2017-2022. Dead red squirrels have been found in woodland close to the Britannia Bridge and Telford's Suspension Bridge. It is only a matter of time before the infection is spread across the Menai Strait and onto Anglesey. The island contains the largest red squirrel population in Wales...
'We need Welsh Government to commit to funding research such as the stalled vaccine research of Moredun/Wildlife Ark Trust'.
Presiding Officer, the 2018 'Red Squirrel Conservation Plan for Wales' was prepared by the Wales squirrel forum. This is made up of statutory, non-statutory organisations and local squirrel groups. It provides an update of actions set in 2009. Action 5.4 reads, 'Research into squirrelpox virus', described as—and I quote,
'Promote the need for funding into squirrelpox virus research and vaccine development, and facilitate co-operation between the relevant departments of the different UK administrations.'
Presiding Officer, it highlights funding to support research as a constraint. I know full well that calls for additional funding at this time are very difficult. I know that the budget settlement is a seriously difficult one, but, Presiding Officer, this is an important issue to the people of Wales. This is the third time that we have debated a petition in the last few years on the red squirrel population in Wales.
I look forward to our debate from Members today. I look forward to the Minister's response. I look forward to raising awareness of what is a dangerous threat to the red squirrel population, and I hope that we can offer hope to the red squirrel species champion, Darren Millar, and those supporters of the red squirrel across Wales and across the world, that there is hope for a vaccine to protect our population of red squirrels from this devastating disease. Diolch yn fawr.

Darren Millar AC: Can I thank the Chair of the committee for his opening speech and for the way in which the Petitions Committee, which fulfils a very important function here in the Senedd, has worked hard to ensure that the plight of the red squirrel has been paid sufficient attention by this Senedd?
As has already been said, I am the red squirrel champion, I have been for a number of years, and it’s a pleasure to represent these super furry animals, which are amongst my favourite constituents because, of course, one of the last populations of red squirrels on the mainland is in the Clocaenog forest in my own constituency. And I'm very proud of the work that the Clocaenog Red Squirrels Trust, of which I'm a member and need to declare an interest, is doing in order to promote the welfare and conservation of the species in my own constituency. I'm also very proud, of course, of the work that the Welsh Mountain Zoo, the national zoo of Wales, is doing to participate in the red squirrel breeding programme, which, of course, has helped to reintroduce squirrels on Anglesey and in Clocaenog and to bolster the populations of reds elsewhere as well.
So, we already know, from the opening remarks, that squirrelpox is an existential threat to the red squirrel population here in Wales. This is an iconic species in our nation, and when you have the sort of statistics that we've just heard—about 70 to 80 per cent of the population, a sparse population as well, in Gwynedd having been wiped out in a very short period of time as a result of an outbreak of squirrelpox—you realise just how precarious the situation is for red squirrels across the country. I've visited the different populations in mid Wales and Clocaenog—I didn't spot any in mid Wales, which was a great upset to me, by the way. If you want to go and spot them, you go to Anglesey, of course, where there's been a huge success because of the conservation work that has been done, both to control the grey squirrel numbers and eradicate them from the island, but also, of course, to try and protect them from incoming grey squirrels over the Menai strait, which pose this threat of bringing the disease to them.
One thing that we do know is that there is some light at the end of the tunnel in terms of a vaccine, because a vaccine has actually been developed, but unfortunately, it's quite a potent vaccine and knocks the squirrels out, effectively, for some considerable time before they recover, and it needs to be attenuated in order to make it safer. But that attenuation work with the vaccine needs further research and that's why we have these calls for research and funding to be supported by the Welsh Government—and, indeed, I have to say, the UK Government needs to put its hands in its pocket and the Scottish Government needs to put its hands in its pocket too—in order to fund this research to get it completed, so that we can make the sort of progress that we need to make in securing the future of this species here in Wales.
The Moredun Research Institute, by the way, because of the work that it's done, I think is probably best placed to continue doing that research. We know that because of the red squirrel trust's work on this and the work that's been done by the organisation that was helped to be established by His Majesty the King while he was the Prince of Wales, which is the UK Squirrel Accord, they've estimated that the cost of completing this research is about £400,000. Now, I appreciate that £400,000 is a lot of money—right? It's a lot of money when you're trying to find money to fund other important things too. But in the scheme of things, with the scale of Government budgets, and if there can be collaboration between the Governments across the UK, I'm sure we can find this resource so that we can help to safeguard the future of these squirrels.
And, we need a decision on this urgently, because these reds, they don't have a lot of time. It is just a matter of time, unfortunately, before a grey will get across the Menai strait and introduce squirrelpox into that population of reds that is on Ynys Môn. And if we're not careful, we'll lose 70 to 80 per cent of that population and it will be so thin that it will not be viable. So, we need to make sure that we act swiftly, and I hope, Minister, that you will be able to confirm today that you're prepared to do your bit with some proportionate funding in order to make sure that we safeguard the future of the species here in Wales. I look forward to your contribution to the debate.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much to Craig from the Red Squirrels Trust Wales for opening this petition. I congratulate him for gathering enough signatures.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Well done for making sure that enough names made it onto that petition to trigger this debate today. I wrote to the Minister about the petition some months ago, so I'm pleased that we've got a chance to discuss it today.
We know that the red squirrel is probably most closely associated with Ynys Môn, and, of course, it's a sore point that the species champion title had been bagged by Darren Millar before I was elected to this place. But for the sake of our little furry friend, I am, of course, happy to work with Darren Millar and all of us across the Chamber to make sure that the red squirrel does get the backing it needs. I also, of course, note my support for the chough, that I am delighted to be the species champion of.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: The fundamental problem is simple, as we've already heard. The grey squirrel carries squirrelpox, but it's the red squirrel that suffers most and is hit hardest by that pox. In the past, we have responded to that and taken practical steps to try to respond when the grey squirrel has posed a threat, capturing grey squirrels and trapping them and so on. That has been a commonly used tool, culling the grey squirrel because of the threat posed, but, of course, as soon as that work slows, then the problem returns. I don't think we can rely on old solutions now, and we do have to look at new options.
Some have suggested introducing contraception, for example, for the grey squirrel, with others suggesting introducing the pine marten in order to control grey squirrel numbers, but this is exactly what these are, they are means of reducing the numbers of grey squirrels rather than seeking ways of protecting red squirrels. And it is a very real threat. We're talking about bridgeheads to stop grey squirrels from getting to Anglesey. We see evidence that grey squirrels can swim across the Menai, so it's crucial that we do seek the best solutions, and I have no doubt that there would be real hope if the investment were to be made in completing the work of developing the vaccine for squirrelpox.
We've already heard that the work has already been done, that the Moredun Research Institute, specifically, was doing groundbreaking work on this between 2011 and 2014, I think. A great deal of work was done, and the trials at the time showed very promising results in terms of reducing the number of red squirrels that died from the virus. But, unfortunately, that work came to an end because of a lack of funding, and almost a decade later, we are no further forward in developing that vaccine.
Myself and Plaid Cymru certainly support the demands made in this petition for the Welsh Government to fund the research and a continuation of the work that's previously been done. Yes, Governments in other parts of the UK are duty-bound to contribute too, because this is a problem that impacts all of these islands.
I love seeing the red squirrel. I'm lucky, it comes to my home now, given the increase in numbers, and I'm always excited every time I see a red squirrel. In the meantime, until we get the pledge that I hope we will have this afternoon that the research can continue, I will continue to try and be a champion, although not an official species champion, and I do very much hope that this Senedd and the Government will be willing to do what's necessary to become a real champion for the future of this species.

Carolyn Thomas AS: I would like to begin by thanking the petitioner, Dr Craig Shuttleworth, for his continued dedication to red squirrel protection and for engaging with the Senedd petitions process so that it can debate the important topic today. It's thanks to hundreds of dedicated experts and volunteers across Wales that we still have a viable red squirrel population at all. I can only imagine how difficult it must have been for those working in north Wales to see the devastating impact of the squirrelpox virus in 2021, as Gwynedd lost 80 per cent of its red squirrels—a huge setback after many years of hard work. As grey squirrels are unharmed by squirrelpox, they act as the perfect vector for the virus, spreading it to vulnerable red populations. This has meant that Ynys Môn has been able to keep the spread at bay by focusing on preventing grey squirrel recolonisation of the island through controls within an adjacent 150 square kilometre area in Gwynedd.
It's important to celebrate the successes of the red squirrel population on Ynys Môn. In 1997, only 40 red squirrels remained, but following natural expansion and a series of reintroductions, the adult red squirrel population is now around 700 individuals. And Dr Shuttleworth has estimated that tourists coming to see the red squirrels in Anglesey is currently worth about £1 million a year. However, disease is not the only serious threat to red squirrels; others include predation by domestic cats and dogs, roadkill, and habitat loss and fragmentation.
Holyhead's Penrhos nature reserve is currently at risk as developers Land and Lakes have permission to build a holiday park on the site. The nature reserve is an important habitat for red squirrels, as well as an oasis for local residents to enjoy. The development will see 27 acres of trees felled—that's the habitat of red squirrels—which will have a serious impact on the squirrels' home, removing much of their dreys and runs. I firmly believe that the impact a development project will have on local wildlife should be re-evaluated at the time of any delayed development. Some can be postponed for years, and I hope that NRW will reassess any permissions for Penrhos.
One in six species in Wales are at risk of extinction, and I ask Members to take a look at the curlew exhibition in the Senedd, which includes the body of the last auk, on loan from the Welsh national museum. [Interruption.] Apparently it was strangled by a collector, and that was it. That was inVictorian times, and that’s here now. So, I hope that the Welsh Government will consider looking into vaccine research with other governments and protect the much-loved and at-risk red squirrel.

I call on the Minister for Climate Change, Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. As all Members have said, squirrelpox represents a genuine threat to red squirrel populations. There have been at least three outbreaks in red squirrels in the Gwynedd and Anglesey areas, where large numbers of red squirrels have been released following captive breeding. But there are some significant challenges regarding the development and delivery of a squirrelpox vaccine, which a number of Members have already mentioned. Work on the development of a vaccine was started in 2009 by the Moredun institute in Scotland, funded by the Wildlife Ark Trust. A candidate vaccine was identified as effective, but it also unfortunately had some severe side-effects. More work was required, but there is no guarantee the vaccine will become viable. Unfortunately, funding for that development ended in 2013, and no further research was then carried out.
Natural Resources Wales and my officials have been advised via the UK Squirrel Accord that the Wildlife Ark Trust has received a quote from a research institute to create a vaccine in 3.5 years at a cost of, we've been told, £361,000. Unfortunately, we don't have any further details about the research institute, the potential vaccine route to market or route to administer, a delivery mechanism or the wider cost of registration and delivery.
A mechanism for administration or delivery of the vaccine would clearly need to be part of the research, and would be an additional cost to developing the vaccine. We would think that an oral vaccine that could be delivered via a bait would be most suitable in squirrel populations. It's been successfully demonstrated in the treatment of rabies, but it's not known by us—I welcome if Members know more than I do, but nobody's mentioned it—whether the type of vaccine under development would be suitable for oral delivery. If not, then it's necessary to trap and administer the vaccine on a regular basis to maintain sufficient immunity in the population. That would only be necessary in areas where red and grey squirrels are likely to come into contact, but that is a large part of mid Wales, obviously.
The UK Squirrel Accord have summarised their concerns as follows: the cost for an annual delivery of a squirrelpox vaccine to wild populations; who would manufacture one in the relatively small batches necessary for it to be viable; could the vaccine result in a mutation of the virus, potentially making it more virulent or the vaccine ineffective; and could the use of a live virus vaccine result in a jump of the disease to other species. Obviously, these are questions we need answers to if we're to move forward.
The vaccine’s not the only course of action to mitigate the impact of the disease, and I know Members are all familiar with action to address pressures affecting red squirrels and their habitats, and are helping to build ecological resilience to that and other threats.
The mid Wales red squirrel population is now Wales's only true native population that has not been reinforced by releases of captive-bred animals from elsewhere in the UK. The mid Wales squirrels are widely dispersed and elusive. There have been no known cases of squirrelpox in this low-density population since monitoring began at least two decades ago. Over the same period, the grey squirrel population has been controlled and, while some grey squirrels have tested positive for squirrelpox, it does not seem to be widespread. The wildlife trust staff who manage the mid Wales red squirrel project advised that using such a vaccine on the mid Wales red squirrel population would be extremely difficult. There is a lack of information on the size of the population, and finding the individuals to deliver a vaccine would be very challenging indeed.
If the Senedd was to consider investing the significant sums required to develop the vaccine and delivery methods, the mid Wales team within Wildlife Trusts Wales advise the resources might be better directed into increasing grey squirrel control and positive public messaging to support red squirrel conservation work. To be successful, grey squirrel control must be coupled with habitat regeneration. This should be regeneration not only in terms of red squirrel conservation and forestry, but in terms of the wider conservation issues and the nature and climate emergency. Protecting tree replanting and the creation of new woodland are especially important in that.
If the mid Wales work with red squirrels is successful, their population is likely to increase. Normally, this would in turn increase the risk that the infection would spread, although in mid Wales, due to the size of the area and nature of the habitat, high-density populations are unlikely to be achieved. We know from data from Scotland that a population density of one to two red squirrels per hectare can be stable in very good quality habitat, but unfortunately the mid Wales habitat is not yet very good quality, although we obviously hope it will become so.
The Wales squirrel forum is the Welsh Government and NRW's mechanism for considering all aspects of grey squirrel management and red squirrel conservation. As part of that forum, the Welsh Government will consider the development of that vaccine alongside other conservation measures to protect and promote resilience within the red squirrel population. So, just to be clear, Dirprwy Lywydd, I'm not ruling that out at all. We certainly do want to consider doing it, but I would suggest that we note the petition and refer it to the Wales squirrel forum for further consideration as part—[Interruption.] Go on, Darren.

Darren Millar AC: I'm grateful to you for taking the intervention. I'm very happy to hear that you'll discuss it with the red squirrel forum and that you will also give consideration to potential funding for a vaccine in the future. Can I ask you directly, though: will you consider co-operating with your counterparts in both the Scottish and the UK Governments on a collaborative approach, given that there are reservoirs of reds in all of the home nations?

Julie James AC: Yes, absolutely, and just to be really clear, we want answers to the questions I've just read out, as do you, as does everybody else. So, you can absolutely see that, if we have to trap every squirrel twice a year to give it to them then it's just not going to happen. So, we absolutely have to have one that can be put into bait, we have to know that it's effective, we have to know that it doesn't do all of the things that—. I'm no expert on that, but we all know what can happen as a result of the COVID-19 experience we've all had.
So, I'm not against it at all. We're very happy to collaborate on it, but we're taking the advice of the mid Wales wildlife ark. They want to consider it as part of the wider conservation measures and, in the interaction we've had with them, they're very concerned that the grey squirrel control measures, which are difficult but need to be done, need to be promoted to the wider public as something that needs to be done, and the habitat restoration needs to be done and, actually, even if you completely eradicated squirrelpox from the population, the grey squirrels would continue to advance and overrun them unless we do all of those other things as well. So, it's about the proportionality of it, isn't it?
So, Dirprwy Lywydd, I am not ruling it out at all, but I'm asking the Senedd and the Senedd's Petitions Committee to refer it to the Wales-wide squirrel forum for further consideration as part of our wider strategy for red squirrel conservation, on which we do collaborate right across the UK. Diolch.

I call on Jack Sargeant to reply to the debate.

Jack Sargeant AC: I'm grateful, Deputy Presiding Officer, to all Members for their contributions, and the Minister for her response. It often surprises me, the power of the red squirrel, in bringing people together. I think it's something of Senedd history to see the likes of Darren Millar for the Welsh Conservatives and the leader of Plaid Cymru come together on such topics in such as agreement as well. I think the super furry animal from Clwyd West said that they were some of his favourite constituents. I'm sure they are as nuts about him as he is about them as well.
In his contribution, Mr Millar mentioned the importance of the Welsh Mountain Zoo and the work that they are doing there to support the population. We heard from the leader of Plaid Cymru that the highest population of the red squirrel is, of course, in Ynys Môn, and Carolyn Thomas reminded us of the devastation of the squirrelpox virus, indeed, but the other threats as well, to that. Carolyn Thomas also mentioned the development on Ynys Môn. I think it was the Penrhos development, which, I believe, Presiding Officer, is also subject to a petition to the Senedd Petitions Committee, so in due course the committee will be responding to that. In Mr Millar's intervention to the Minister, he called for collaboration between all Governments across the United Kingdom, and the Minister, in response, agreed with that and there was a firm commitment there indeed.
But it's right, isn't it—? In a time where there are so many competing demands for funding, I understand the position to give commitment to funding on the floor of the Senedd is difficult, and for Ministers finding themselves in those difficult positions, but the existence of the Wales squirrel forum is an important one. I heard the Minister's responses to some of the questions that need answering, that you would like answering, that we would like answering too, and some of the challenges around the vaccine delivery, but that is the place where this could be debated further. I'm sure as a committee, committee members—

Alun Davies AC: Would you take an intervention?

Jack Sargeant AC: Of course.

Alun Davies AC: I've thoroughly enjoyed the debate this afternoon on the red squirrel. It demonstrates, actually, how these things can bring people together. I very much accept the point that the Chair of the committee is making, but would it be possible for the Petitions Committee to return to this matter so that it isn't lost and that Members on all sides of the Chamber continue to be informed of the work of the squirrel forum, and that we can continue then to monitor this work to ensure that what we want to see done actually is delivered?

Jack Sargeant AC: I'm grateful for the intervention from Alun Davies. Certainly, we will—[Interruption.] Weekly updates, I hear Tom Giffard say. I'm not quite sure I can promise that on the floor of the Chamber, but what I can say is that this petition will come back to committee, where we will consider it again. I'm sure Members of the committee heard the request from Alun Davies. We will take that into consideration. I'm sure we will refer today's debate to the Wales squirrel forum, as suggested by the Minister also, and I'm very happy to keep Members updated, whether that be through discussions outside the Chamber or through written updates to Members of the Senedd.
Deputy Presiding Officer, I can see the glare in your eye, so on behalf of the committee I do wish to thank, once again, the other species champion, Dr Craig Shuttleworth, for his continued campaigning, both to the Senedd Petitions Committee, but also for the wider public, on the species of the red squirrel. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to note the petition. Does any Member object? There is no objection, and therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

8. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Community assets

The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Item 8 this afternoon is the first Welsh Conservatives debate, on community assets. I call on Mark Isherwood to move the motion.

Motion NDM8361 Darren Millar
Supported by Natasha Asghar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Recognises that community assets act as local hubs and provide important access to information, services, skills and social experiences.
2. Further recognises community assets improve community cohesion and allow local communities to take control of shaping the area they live in.
3. Notes Audit Wales’s community resilience and self-reliance report which outlines that local authorities find it difficult to empower people and communities to be more self-reliant and less dependent on services.
4. Regrets that there is no statutory right for communities in Wales to buy land or assets as in Scotland, and no right to bid, challenge, or build as in England.
5. Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a) protect community assets by enabling local people to run and expand facilities that benefit the local community; and
b) introduce a Community Ownership Fund and Right to Bid to support the takeover of assets such as libraries, pubs, leisure centres and green spaces.

Motion moved.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch. As our motion states, community assets act as local hubs and provide important access to information, services, skills and social experiences. We therefore ask this Senedd to recognise that community assets improve community cohesion and allow local communities to take control of shaping the area they live in, and call on the Welsh Government to protect community assets by enabling local people to run and expand facilities that benefit the local community. Real co-production lies at the heart of this. Emphasising the genuinely transformative nature of co-production when leading the first debate here on co-production a decade ago, I stated that it's
'not just a nice add on but a new way of operating for the Government as well as for public service professionals and citizens themselves.'
However, despite this being central to, for example, both the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 and the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, successive reports, including Audit Wales in January, found that too often local authority work on community resilience is poorly defined, and the actions are too narrowly focused. Without effective monitoring and evaluation, there is also often pushback by senior public officials who either do not want to share power with the people, individually or in communities, who falsely claim that this change of approach is unaffordable, when doing it properly actually saves money, turning problems into solutions. We therefore need to fully embrace co-production, moving beyond rhetoric and consultation, to doing things differently in practice, with service professionals, service users and their communities working side by side to provide solutions.
Welsh Government needs to work in partnership with and empower the voluntary sector, community groups and other social entrepreneurs, to help deliver the solutions to the long-term problems of our most deprived communities. Enabling Wales will require the development of a long-term overarching community strategy to help empower local people and establish genuine asset-based community development as a key principle within community development, unlocking both people and physical assets, empowering the people of the community, and using existing community strengths to build sustainable communities for the future, embedding the principle of co-production in the design and delivery of local services in Wales to ensure that local services are more responsive to people's needs.
Funded via a lottery endowment, national community development organisation Building Communities Trust runs the 'invest local' programme in 13 local communities across Wales. I visited one this summer. They continue to work within three key themes: more recognition and rights, more respect and more investment for communities. In their briefing to new members after the 2021 election, they stated BCT research with community groups across Wales shows they often feel overlooked and under-resourced by local and national Government. They've undertaken research on the scale of assets providing public and private services run by community organisations, and on community responses to the pandemic. I joined their Wales community assets index launch event on Monday this week. This research uncovered 102 previously unidentified less-resilient areas across Wales. It shows that communities with fewer places to meet, a less engaged and active community and poorer connectivity to the wider economy experience significantly different social and economic outcomes, compared to communities possessing more of these assets, and that communities with fewer of these assets have higher rates of unemployment. Residents, they said, often do not have qualifications and experience limiting long-term illnesses than both areas typically regarded as experiencing deprivation that do have those assets and Wales as a whole. They also have lower levels of community activity and receive lower levels of funding from both the state and charitable funders, despite their social challenges.
To reduce these place-based disparities, their six key recommendations include Welsh Government must create a community wealth fund from the Dormant Assets Act 2022 and must ensure, through stronger guidance or legislation, that communities have a simpler process to take over key community facilities. However, despite the UK Localism Act 2011, the Welsh Government has refused to require councils in Wales to maintain a list of community assets, and to introduce the community right-to-bid for assets of community value, unlike England. Our motion, therefore, regrets that there is no statutory right for communities in Wales to buy land or assets, as in Scotland, and no right to bid, challenge or build, as in England, and calls on the Welsh Government to protect community assets by enabling local people to run and expand facilities that benefit the local community, and introduce a community-ownership fund and right to bid.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Will you take an intervention?

Mark Isherwood AC: I move accordingly.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: [Inaudible.]

He's just moved and has just finished. Sorry, Mabon.

Mark Isherwood AC: I would have done. I'm sorry.

I have selected the amendment to the motion. I call on the Minister for Climate Change to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Amendment 1—Lesley Griffiths
Delete points 4 and 5 and replace with:
Welcomes the Welsh Government’s long-standing commitment to:
a) protect community assets by enabling local people to run and expand facilities that benefit the local community;
b) recognise, promote and share best practice across the public sector through Ystadau Cymru; and
c) establishing a Community Assets Commission with a remit to further stimulate innovative thinking on community ownership of land and assets in Wales.

Amendment 1 moved.

Julie James AC: Formally.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: I'm sure we're all familiar with many positives and benefits that come from community-owned and managed assets, but I want to draw your attention to some research that focuses on England that has been published. It demonstrates that areas that experience greater deprivation but have a higher concentration of community assets and community actions have better health and well-being outcomes, higher rates of employment and lower levels of child poverty compared with deprived areas that don't have high levels of community assets or community action. This correlates with early findings of some ongoing research being undertaken by the Building Communities Trust, in partnership with Oxford Consultants for Social Inclusion. The findings suggest that otherwise deprived areas identified using the Welsh index of multiple deprivation that have community and civic assets will be less susceptible to being identified as 'at risk'. So, in other words, typically deprived communities possessing stronger community and civic assets are more resilient than those without. There is some hard evidence to back this up as well.
I think another thing worth mentioning that has been made clear in evidence sessions is the extent to which support and advice is available to those community groups that are looking to take on a community asset. Ultimately, support is far from universal; it varies across Wales. Groups in sectors stated that there was a need for additional cost-free support. I'd like to reiterate the call for the community facilities programme to be enhanced to look at building community capacity. We need to build some of those softer skills that are needed within community groups to facilitate their ongoing running, particularly around developing in terms of asset transfers. Financial barriers are one of the biggest barriers that community groups face in terms of trying to acquire assets, but assuming that they can acquire an asset, it's also the ongoing costs that act as a huge barrier. So, barriers that cumulatively create a really difficult circumstance for groups to do this.
As a final note, then, on community-led housing, it goes without saying that strengthening communities' rights can help to grow the community-led housing movement in Wales. It's now time that we see a recognition of the need for changes to people's abilities to access their own land, suitable for development of much-needed, perpetually affordable, community-led housing. We need Welsh Government to help communities to tear down the barriers that make community-led housing a mainstream and generally popular form of housing, as the case is in much of Europe. By introducing legislation that enables community ownership of land and assets, communities will be able to more effectively deliver climate-secure, affordable homes that are developed and managed by and with local people to meet their needs and needs of the future. Diolch yn fawr.

Jenny Rathbone AC: There's much in this motion that's motherhood and apple pie, we'll all agree with it, but I want to share some of the concerns I have around how we go forward on this. Mark Isherwood, you've said that the Welsh Government doesn't want to share power with the people. Well, I think we're doing that all the time. You were also saying that so-called local—

Jenny.

Mark Isherwood AC: I was referring to public officials—those charged in bodies across Wales with delivering on the legislation, which the Welsh Government itself has passed.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Okay. All right. I would concede that there's much work to do on that. I agree that local services have to be responsible to people's needs. My personal mantra is we constantly need to be reshaping services to better meet people's needs; that's something I've been fighting for for 20 years, and the best public servants are doing that all the time. With austerity budgets, that's the only way at the moment we're going to improve services in the short term.
Place-based communities is really important, and if we have local councillors who are good community leaders, that's what's happening. I would like to commend the work that's been done by Buffy Williams in the community before she came here, and that work is ongoing, I know, in the Rhondda area.
I think there is some merit in the community's right to bid for assets, but we have to be careful. The Building Communities Trust report that came out this week highlights that, actually—which we knew already, really—that people in better-off communities have plenty of people who are available to volunteer and do good things on behalf of the community, and it is the poorer communities who struggle to find volunteers to do this sort of thing, because people are just so much more stretched, they're having to do so much longer hours at work and they don't have the benefit of maybe other members of their family to look after their children while they're doing this sort of work. So, there is definitely a much bigger challenge around having those place-based communities and those community leaders in areas of deprivation. We just all need to recognise that, and we need to be equitable in the way that we approach this.
Now, so, I think, in terms of a community's right to bid, Roath Park Hotel on City Road could have been bought up by the local community, but, of course, the brewery doesn't want to do that. They want to sell it to the highest bidder to be torn down and then they're going to build some hideous flats instead, even though it's a really fine building. It could've been converted not for a pub but for some decent housing. And I think, in terms of planning availability, there's clearly the example of Guildford Crescent, and the way in which the developers have simply ignored the wishes of the community to preserve a very fine facade, and to rip it down in order to maximise the profits that they're going to reap from building a 30-storey block of flats is totally depressing and really an indication from constituents of mine who say, really, Cardiff's just descending into being one large shopping mall with a lot of—

You need to conclude now, Jenny, please.

Jenny Rathbone AC: —purpose-built student accommodation. So, we have to ensure that the local authorities have the powers in their local development plans to defend communities from overdevelopment and unwanted developments.

Joel James AS: As you know, I have spoken many times in this Chamber about my concerns that community assets are not being sufficiently protected and that the Welsh Government is failing communities by not empowering them enough to be able to take over assets that they value and ensure that they survive for the good of the community. Sadly, we are facing an unprecedented loss of those places that communities across Wales have valued for generations. Those places that they feel are very much part of their identity and their local history, and they're losing them because, even if they were in a position to purchase them, they face, as the Institute of Welsh Affairs has described, an arduous and demoralising process: a single asset transfer mechanism.
As we have seen, local authorities lack the capacity to deal with the complexities and the legality of asset transfers. Communities are not encouraged or given the confidence or professional support to develop the skills that are necessary to run these assets, and so they're more often than not left with no choice but to watch their beloved buildings either deteriorate and crumble into nothingness or to be snapped up and demolished in the name of progress and regeneration. The IWA reports that, and I quote,
'the Welsh Government's own research showed that only a handful of local authorities actually had a dedicated person for community asset transfers, and the stories we got when we spoke to communities were really negative, actually. They often said there wasn’t a clear process in practice for community asset transfers.'
Since the Welsh Government are well aware of this and have made little to no effort to change and improve these processes, or to encourage local authorities to do so, it shows that the Welsh Labour Government really doesn't care about it. The sad truth is that the Welsh Labour Party are devoid of ideas or motivation on this subject. They will not introduce legislation in Wales that is shown to be successful in England or Scotland and will choose instead to create and repeat a narrative of failure in Wales—[Interruption.]—passing the blame yet again to—

Joel, will you take an intervention?

Joel James AS: Yes.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: On that point, are you aware that the first community enterprise in Europe was established in Llanaelhaearn—Antur Aelhaearn—under the late, great Carl Clowes? A fantastic organisation. And the first community-run pub was Tafarn y Fic, Llithfaen. Both in my constituency. So, we've got a long and proud record of developing community enterprises that we should be growing and developing. And isn't it a shame that while the Welsh Government promised, pre-2016, to develop a framework around empowering communities, that we're still waiting for legislation on this and they should really shape up with bringing something forward?

Joel James AS: Yes, I fully agree with Mabon's comments there. Unfortunately, it's left to the individuals, a select few, to try and push for these buildings to be saved when, really, they should be getting the support from the Government to do it. But, as we've seen, it's yet again an example of passing the blame to Westminster and claiming it has not been given the resources to do it. And I'm sure many people here will believe that Welsh Government purposely takes a different policy direction to the UK Government, even though we face many of the same challenges, to not only try and justify its own existence, but to foster an anti-Conservative UK Government settlement.
And so, finally, Llywydd, I would like to say that our communities deserve so much better than this Welsh Government. It is a travesty that the devolved Government we suffer from means that local communities are not empowered enough to save those places that matter so much to them, and that the processes of taking ownership and stopping community assets from being lost are far too difficult for many to achieve. I therefore hope that everyone here will support the motion raised by Darren Millar. Thank you.

Buffy Williams AS: I'd like to declare an interest, that I am a trustee of Canolfan Pentre, a registered charity. In 2016, Pentre Primary School in Rhondda closed its doors for the last time. In the years leading to the closure, we also lost our local shops, our local bank and, as a result of David Cameron's and George Osborne's austerity measures, we also lost our community centre. Pupils of Pentre primary were sent to surrounding schools to make new friends but had nowhere to meet together after returning home at the end of the day. Elderly residents that used to attend the community centre were left with very little alternative and instead sat at home, often on their own.
It was from there Canolfan Pentre started its journey as the first asset transfer in Rhondda Cynon Taf. My ambition, with little to no experience of running a charity prior to this, was to create a space where everybody in our local community felt welcome, where children could meet after school and older people could meet to play some bingo or just spend an hour out of the house with company. Out of just an idea to bring people together, we now run classes for children with additional learning needs, we have community top-up shops and we have mental health provision running weekly.
Community assets have the ability to completely transform our communities. There's nothing worse than seeing the shell of a building that was once bustling with activity, but I'm not going to shy away from the fact that it's extremely difficult, especially at the beginning of the journey. From my own experience, I'd just like to raise these points. The process of acquiring the asset is extremely lengthy. We need to find a way of cutting back the amount of time it takes on the transfer itself, more specifically, the need to instruct your own solicitor. After receiving the lease, the asset becomes your group or your individual's responsibility in its entirety. There's often very little detail on the integrity of the building and if anything needs fixing, as well as running costs going forward.
We must not forget that, on most occasions, the people who bid for these assets are usually volunteers, so we must also ensure they're supported by people with the right skills to move the project forward and to make it sustainable. In Rhondda, we have the RCT Together team that support with this aspect. I'm not sure of any other local authorities who have the equivalent of this vitally important service.
Lastly, I strongly believe local authorities and the Welsh Government should create almost a one-stop-shop webpage or a guide booklet, drawing on the experiences of groups across Wales who've already acquired community assets. There's absolutely nothing worse than the unknown. I feel guidance would go a long way in helping communities take that initial step to bring our community assets back into our community's hands.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Sian Gwenllian AC: In the National Eisteddfod in Pen Llŷn, Cymunedoli Cyf was launched, a new community network with the intention of inspiring and providing support and advice for anyone who wants to operate on a community level. At its heart, the aim is to empower communities, to encourage and support communities to come together across Gwynedd, and to support those communities where there aren't natural leaders, namely the point that some of you have already made today. There are 26 community enterprises as part of this new network, many of them in my constituency of Arfon: yr Orsaf, Penygroes; Galeri, Caernarfon; Partneriaeth Ogwen; pubs in community hands; community transport; and community renewable energy schemes. Menter Felinheli is a member of Cymunedoli, one of the newest members, and, as I come from this village, I do declare an interest this afternoon.
Now, Menter Felinheli wants to buy a marina. Yes, you heard me right—they want to buy the village marina, an operational and busy marina that is now in the hands of administrators. This is where the old quayside was, where slate from Dinorwig was exported to all parts of the world at one time. Now, Menter Felinheli has to compete directly against bids by commercial entities, even though there is a viable business plan in place, an excellent plan. The marina could be a very valuable community asset, and it’s very frustrating that the path towards the purchase could be so much easier if Felinheli were in Scotland, or, indeed, in England, where there is legislation in place already that does put communities at an advantage. So, it’s high time that we in Wales caught up with these other nations, and that’s why I support the motion today.
We have excellent examples of community enterprises in Gwynedd. They are flourishing there at the moment as communities are empowering themselves. They’re excellent examples of a community model of economic development, a template of what is possible. For once we don’t have to go outside Wales to find good practice and to be inspired, but we do need to amend and reform the legislation. We need to strengthen the legislation; we need to do what is stated in the motion. Therefore, hopefully, indeed, we’ll see the commission that is proposed by the Government in the amendment. If that is indeed the pathway forward, there we are, but, come on, this commission needs to do its work and to do it quickly. Thank you.

Samuel Kurtz AS: I'm grateful for the opportunity to participate in this debate today, and happy to support the motion that has been laid in the name of Darren Millar. I’m unapologetically a strong advocate for devolution, and do not feel that devolution of power should end with the Members in this Chamber alone, but, where suitable, should go to our local councils and, further still, to our local communities. It is those people on the ground, living and working within their communities, who are best positioned to understand the needs of their local communities.
It has been a pleasure to follow some speakers today, especially Buffy Williams, who showed her important experience with a community asset, and I’d like to focus my contribution on one within my patch. The historic dockyard Garrison Chapel located within the royal dockyard in Pembroke Dock is a perfect example of an asset that is looking to be run by the local community. The chapel is approaching its one hundred and ninetieth birthday and is the only Georgian military chapel that survives in Wales. In the days of shipbuilding at the dockyard, the chapel’s choir would sing along the slipway whenever a new ship was launched. For 30 years at the end of the last century it was in a state of disrepair. Then, in 2003, it received financial support and was rebuilt and restored under the ownership of Pembrokeshire County Council, who looked to make a commercial use out of it. However, since 2008 it has been rented out at a peppercorn rent to the Pembroke Dock Heritage Trust to run the Pembroke Dock Heritage Centre. The centre, which was opened by the late Queen in 2014, houses a museum to the proud military history of Pembroke Dock, and also, for you Star Wars fans, a scale model of the Millennium Falcon, which was originally built in the dockyard at Pembroke Dock. With the recent successful bid for the Celtic free port, which is set to secure investment and economic activity into the ports on both sides of the Haven waterway, it is reassuring that a piece of the dockyard’s history, the Garrison Chapel, remains a key asset to the community and to the town.
Since my election I’ve been in correspondence with volunteers and trustees from the heritage trust who run the centre to see if they can take ownership of the building as a community asset, and away from the ownership of Pembrokeshire County Council. I want to take this opportunity to thank these volunteers for the dedication and effort that they put into running this centre. I can't speak highly enough of it, and I urge Members, if they are ever in my patch, to take a visit to the Pembroke Dock Heritage Centre. You sure will enjoy it.
Now, the centre offers a valuable service to our community, hosting charitable coffee mornings and providing companionship and interaction for those who may otherwise face loneliness. It also showcases the history of this maritime town, allowing visitors, schoolchildren and locals to better understand the community upon which it was founded.
So, with local authorities being under significant financial pressures, it would seem to me that there has never been a better time for communities to take ownership of community assets. The local authority remains reluctant to release the chapel from their ownership, and I can understand some of the reasons why. However, for years, their attempts to commercialise the chapel have been unsuccessful, enhancing the argument in my mind that this building, which was built for use by the community over 200 years ago and which has demonstrated its success as a community facility, should be run by the local community.
Not to test the Llywydd's patience any longer, just to close, this is one example, and I'm sure that there are countless examples similar in each one of our patches. So, for the sake of the Garrison Chapel and many other buildings and assets throughout Wales, I urge us all to support the motion. Diolch, Llywydd.

The Minister for Climate Change, Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Can I begin by thanking all the Members for their contributions today? We, of course, all agree that our communities are our greatest asset, and, in Wales, they are very central to our policies and commitments in the programme for government.
Decisions taken by successive UK Conservative Governments and 13 years of austerity have meant significant challenges for our public services, challenges that this Welsh Government strives to protect them from. Our communities have risen with us to these challenges, and we know that we must continue to support them in every way that we can, to ensure that they remain resilient.
In research published this week, the Building Communities Trust has made some important links between civic assets, which include community-owned assets, and the resilience of our Welsh communities. Communities are critical partners in our collective efforts to help address inequality, tackle poverty, build confidence and self-esteem and improve health and well-being. These qualities are even more important given the severity of the financial constraints that the public sector faces in Wales.
Community assets are, of course, an important part of this picture. They have featured in debates in this Chamber on a number of occasions over the last 12 months, clearly reflecting the importance that they have in delivering services within our communities. Community assets act as local hubs that provide an invaluable resource to our communities, and not just as a resource for information, services, skills and social experiences. As many Members have pointed out, community assets provide critical support for community cohesion. The pandemic demonstrated just how important access to assets is for resilient communities. They can also enable innovation, especially in providing the services that communities want.
We do, of course, already provide funding to communities wishing to buy or improve community assets. Our community facilities programme has provided over £49.6 million in grants to 413 projects across Wales since opening in 2015, and is complemented by the £5 million community asset loan fund, run for us by the Wales Council for Voluntary Action. Each gives community groups access to up to £300,000 to purchase assets.
The Ystadau Cymru assets collaboration programme has also helped communities to improve and decarbonise valuable community facilities, and provides good examples of where local authorities continue to support communities after the transfer of assets. Enabling the use of social housing grant for community-led housing, in partnership with registered social landlords, also shows the value in continuing that collaboration.
Llywydd, there are numerous other examples of successful community asset projects that are run by and for local communities that have taken place without legislation. The Audit Wales report identifies that, despite a commitment to change, local authorities face particular challenges in supporting communities to be more self-reliant. I absolutely welcome their recommendations and recognise that change will be needed. The toolkit that they have developed will assist our local authorities to bring about the changes that we need to see.
Our commitment through Ystadau Cymru can also help by recognising, promoting and sharing best practice across the public sector. The statutory right for communities to bid for or buy assets to support these aspirations is one of the areas that I'm asking the forthcoming commission on community assets to consider. This was a key part of the recommendations of the Local Government and Housing Committee report published last October. The recommendations of that committee were, however, far more wide-ranging than any right to bid or buy. Evidence from England and Scotland heard by the Senedd committee also indicated that the right to bid is not always an enabler of successful community asset projects. In 2020, the Building Communities Trust identified 438 examples of community-led or community-owned assets in Wales, and were confident that there were many more outside of the definition of 'assets'. These assets were bought or leased from public and private owners and were acquired by communities without recourse to statutory rights. There is, however, of course, much more we can do to support our community assets.
I've accepted a number of the recommendations from the Local Government and Housing Committee and my officials have been considering how we will take those very wide-ranging recommendations forward.It is important that this work focuses on the communities themselves. Our community policy will genuinely empower our communities in key policy areas. We will also continue to support community ownership and management of key assets through guidance and funding. These are the key areas that the Senedd has asked us to address as part of their recommendations.
The publication of the research I've already mentioned by the Building Communities Trust this week is timely to this debate. It has provided valuable evidence of the role of civic assets, which includes those that aren't community owned, in resilient communities. The research echoes the recommendations of the Senedd committee in calling for a simpler process, consideration of legislation and stronger guidance. These will all be within the task of the commission on community assets. We're acting on all of the recommendations, but we do need to make sure that we get it right. The commission needs to be supported to do much more than repeat the work of the Senedd committee.
Today's motion encompasses the very nature of the issues I'll be asking the community assets commission to consider. I am anticipating advice from officials very shortly on the form, terms of reference and membership of that commission in the coming weeks. The commission's remit will be far wider than the points raised in today's motion. This is a huge opportunity for us to develop something bespoke to Wales that genuinely benefits and supports the resilience of our Welsh communities. There is no doubt that community control of assets benefits us all. I therefore do welcome the motion put forward today, alongside its amendment. Collaboration will indeed, Llywydd, be the key driver in making this happen. Diolch.

Sam Rowlands to reply to the debate.

Sam Rowlands AS: Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. And thank you to all Members for contributing to today's debate. Indeed, I'm very encouraged by how important this item is, in seeing such a full Chamber for the closing of this important debate this afternoon.
Mark Isherwood, of course, opened in the only way that Mark Isherwood can open, by reminding us that it was over a decade ago that he was here leading a debate on co-operation and the importance of co-production for community assets. He was also keen to highlight to us the work of the Building Communities Trust and their three key themes, as well as the Wales community assets index, which they've produced as well.
Peredur Owen Griffiths highlighted to us the importance of support to enable those communities that perhaps lack skills at the moment to get hold of those assets themselves. And that was something that Jenny Rathbone was also keen to remind us of, especially in those more deprived communities, perhaps where they haven’t got the skills, the time or the energy to get hold of these important assets. Jenny Rathbone was also keen to remind us all that services provided by public servants need to be constantly reshaped to meet the needs of the people that they serve.
Joel James reminded us of the importance of protecting community assets, and expressed his frustration, perhaps, with the pace of change by Welsh Government, and an intervention from Mabon ap Gwynfor was also on that point as well. And we heard some specific examples from Members across the Chamber—Sam Kurtz, Buffy Williams, Siân Gwenllian—from their own constituencies, perhaps where things have gone well in some cases, and areas where things aren’t working well. Perhaps a tale of two or three councils, and there’s probably an opportunity there for those local authorities to learn from each other, and for the Welsh Local Government Association to perhaps do some work there about lessons learned, about those local authorities where assets are readily available to the community.
And, Minister, we were grateful for your positive response to the debate this afternoon. Of course, there are opportunities for us to work across party, across layers of government and across sectors, because we all want to see the same thing, by the looks of it: we want to see our communities empowered to get hold of the assets that are useful to them. Minister, you were keen to highlight to us some of the financial pressures in place at the moment, but obviously, there are opportunities with that to ensure that our communities are able to be supported in holding on to assets that are important to them. Minister, you were also keen to remind us of the work of the community assets commission and we're all keen to see that progress as quickly as possible. I'm conscious of time, Llywydd, so I will close by moving our motion again today. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection and we will therefore defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

9. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Deputy Minister for Climate Change

That brings us to item 9, which is the Welsh Conservatives' debate, and I call on Natasha Asghar to move the motion.

Motion NDM8362 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
Has no confidence in the Deputy Minister for Climate Change given the record-breaking number of signatories to the petition: 'We want the Welsh Government to rescind and remove the disastrous 20mph law'.

Motion moved.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you, Presiding Officer. I am more than happy to move this motion, tabled in the name of my colleague Darren Millar, having originally called for the Deputy Minister to go in March this year. It's been nearly two weeks since this Labour Government's costly and unwanted 20 mph speed limit scheme was forced onto the people of Wales. In a short time, opposition to the move has exploded, with a petition calling for the £33 million project to be axed growing at an astronomical speed. In fact, just before standing up in front of you all in this Chamber today, more than 440,000 people have added their name to the ever-growing petition.
To put that into perspective, you've all seen the figures, and I'm sure you've all done the maths as well, that's more than what Welsh Labour received in the regional ballot at the 2021 Senedd elections, and it's fast approaching the 443,000 total the party received in the constituency ballot. It's also worth noting that nearly 12,000 people in Llanelli have signed the petition calling for the scheme to be scrapped. In comparison, the man who represents the area, who is also Labour's poster boy for this 20 mph scheme, received fewer than 14,000 votes in the last election. This really doesn't sound like the public is on board with this scheme despite what Labout MSs and the Deputy Minister for Climate Change have said.
I've said it from the beginning, and I'll say it again: the people of Wales do not want the Labour Party's 20 mph pet project. This petition demonstrates just that. Yet, the Deputy Minister with his usual air of arrogance completely dismissed the petition, saying it was not representative of the wider public. And he's not alone in doing that—

Alun Davies AC: Will you take an intervention?

Natasha Asghar AS: Go on.

Alun Davies AC: If this is so important to you, and this is the thing that is grabbing the attention of the people of Wales, why have you only allocated 30 minutes to it? That's an insult. It's a stunt; it's not taking it seriously.

Natasha Asghar AS: I appreciate what the Member is saying, however, we want to get—[Interruption.] I understand that my colleague has answered the question already in relation to the hour-long—. I was happy with half an hour or an hour; it didn't make a difference to me, because I want to make sure that we're able to get the points across—

It has been tabled as a 30-minute debate by the Conservative Party.

Natasha Asghar AS: That's fine, that's fine—[Interruption.]I'd like to be able to continue in peace, if that's okay.
We've seen Labour MPs at the other end of the M4 trying to discredit the petition, saying it's an abomination, that people outside of Wales are signing it. Well, let me tell you all: it's absolutely right and fair that people in England, and across wherever they have any links to Wales, are signing this petition as it will undoubtedly affect everybody who has links to Wales. I know people, believe it or not, in Newport East, who are currently on holiday in Pakistan signing the petition who were quite offended that the validity of their signatures was being questioned.
Deputy Minister, I would say the public have well and truly had their say, but because you don't like the results and can't bring yourself to admit you made a mistake, you are trying to discredit the petition and stick your head back into the sand. You are pushing ahead with this flawed policy without a care in the world for businesses, emergency services, nurses, carers and motorists, who are all going to be affected by this move. And then should we be surprised by your lack of care? This policy doesn't affect you in the slightest, as you are ferried around in a chauffeur-driven ministerial motor all day. [Members of the Senedd: 'Oh.']
Now, Deputy Minister, you and I rarely see eye to eye, and I can accept that, but for me and many others, this 20 mph scheme really is the straw that broke the camel's back. I'm afraid it's time for you to go before you cause any more unnecessary damage.
Presiding Officer, for far too long the Deputy Minister's endless blunders have gone unchecked. Deputy Minister, you admitted your Government doesn't know what it's doing when it comes to the economy. You've branded the Royal College of Nursing 'extremely militant', and you can't even perform simple tasks like voting, having messed it up royally three times in fewer than three years. You've banned all major road building in Wales in a desperate bid to get kudosfrom the likes of people like Greta Thunberg, and let's not forget you are completely hypocritical. On the one hand, you're preaching to the public about getting out of their cars and onto public transport, yet you have claimed thousands of pounds in mileage expenses and submitted just three claims for rail tickets.
On top of that, you're running our train network into the ground, with Transport for Wales deemed to have the worst customer—[Interruption.]

I am goingto need to hear the Member, because I can't rule whether she's in or out of order in anything she says unless I hear her. So, if you can carry on and do so in a bit of silence.

Natasha Asghar AS: On top of that, you're running our train network into the ground, with Transport for Wales deemed to have the worst customer satisfaction for train operators in the UK. For many, in all four corners of Wales, getting the train is a painful experience, with no signs of improvement and no light at the end of the tunnel.
Vital bus services are being axed as a result of your actions, leaving people isolated in their communities. Whilst bus usage is going up across the board in England, thanks to a productive UK Government, bus providers here have received next to no support and face uncertain futures. And millions of pounds, straight from the public purse, are being spent on propping up your failing Cardiff Airport vanity project as well.
Now, you keep harping on about road safety, and I've heard this in many papers and across news headlines for the last few weeks, yet I fear that this is just another example of you saying one thing and doing another. I understand that many people have accused me, alongside my colleagues, that we do not care about road safety. Presiding Officer, it's very important to address this right now. I was always taught to look, listen and ultimately cross the road, but they say a picture paints a thousand words. Well, look at this, because this was sent to me by 15 constituents from across the region. Now I would like to see and show you all Mr Road Safety right over there crossing the road with a group of children completely ignoring the red man symbol. It doesn't exactly sing songs of praise.
Enough is enough. It's evident for everyone to see that the Deputy Minister's clearly out of his depth and the fact that he made it to the front bench is quite frankly bewildering to everybody. [Interruption.] Yet, perhaps what is more surprising is the fact that despite his extensive catalogue of errors, he's still here today. [Interruption.]

I'm struggling to hear the Member again. You need to carry on in some silence. [Interruption.] I can't hear whether I'm missing anything or not, Alun Davies, is the answer to that one. Can we hear the Member, please?

Natasha Asghar AS: Over the past few weeks, I—and I'm sure many other Members too—have had hundreds of calls, e-mails, and messages from people all across Wales who are quite frankly livid. And this vote is not solely just about 20 mph and speed limits; it's about all of the transport failings we've had over the last three years.
I'd like to give a message to the First Minister. I know you're here today, and having only been in politics for the past few years, First Minister, I've learned that it takes a good politician to acknowledge when they've made a mistake, and it takes a great politician to do something about them when they've been made. So, First Minister, I humbly request to you that you make the right decision today on behalf of every single person, group, organisation and business that have contacted me from every single corner of Wales. And on behalf of all those who've signed the petition, taken part in countless protests across Wales, will you please make the right decision and fire the Deputy Minister, as the people of Wales really do deserve better?
And of course, Presiding Officer, if the First Minister refuses to sack him, perhaps for the first time in his career, the Deputy Minister will do the decent thing and just resign himself and do us all a favour.
Sadly, we know that the Labour Party will unfortunately rally around the Deputy Minister, and toe party lines despite knowing it's the wrong thing to do, and Plaid will vote whichever way Labour tells you to, but let me warn you all: the people of Wales are watching closely with interest, more so now than ever before, and they will remember that each and every single one of you have turned your back on your constituents today and let them down big time.

Hefin David AC: Let's calm it all down a bit. I'd actually like to pay credit to the Conservatives right now. They've achieved something today that many have tried and many have failed: they've united two thirds of this Chamber around Lee Waters. [Laughter.] And I think that is a significant achievement that we will see at voting time.
This Deputy Minister has stood up and been counted. He's been out there answering questions, he's been on the media, he's taken everything on the chin, and I know that he's had a series of threats against him as well that have made him very uncomfortable. I've had some e-mails that have made me uncomfortable. I'm going to read you one right now: 'Senedd Members are elected to think, speak and act on our behalf.' I absolutely agree with that. But the next line cut me to the core: 'On a more personal level, it may well be that you have an ambition to be our representative in Westminster when your dad retires.' [Laughter.] Wayne David isn't my dad, and I think we need to make that absolutely clear.
I think that just typifies some of the misinformation that is out there. I did a Facebook live last night and I had 3,200 viewers, and only a portion of that actually had issues about 20 mph. I answered every single question and, as we do it in Caerphilly, it was done with respect, and the answers that I gave were listened to and questioned, and the dialogue continued. And that is how it needs to be done.
But seriously, all joking aside, we have had some awful abuse, and I think the speech that Natasha Asghar made is just perpetuating that. It's making it worse, it's making us uncomfortable in our own homes, and bringing this motion about for a Minister who has done nothing other than keep his promise. That's what he's done, and that's why this is absolutely absurd, and why I opened my speech just by making fun of it.
But it is a chance to correct the record. One of the things that was raised on my Facebook live yesterday was people saying, 'I agree with this outside schools and hospitals.' Well, the exemption criteria says the only place you can't exempt 20 mph without a very good reason is within a 100m walk of any educational setting, within 100m walk of any community centre, within 100m walk of any hospital, or where the number of residential or retail premises fronting a road exceeds 20 properties per kilometre.
I've said to any resident who wants to come to me that I will meet with them and, providing those criteria are not met, then we can look at asking the council to change that. It's perfectly possible. And even where those are in place, we can look at reviewing them. But that is just democracy. That is meeting people, fronting up, talking to them, going to their communities and making the changes that they want, and that is exactly what we're going to do. I drive to my constituency office. I pass one 20 mph zone and then I'm in a 30 mph, a 40 mph and finally a 20 mph zone in the village of Gilfach, which is where my office is situated. There are those exemptions.
And finally I'd say, regarding the petition, we do need to take it seriously, there are a lot of signatures on there, but it isn't a referendum, it isn't a democratic vote. It is that everyone who is strongly opposed—we know there are a lot of them—has signed the petition, but that is recognised in the polling. We know that those who are opposed, those 15 per cent or so who are deeply opposed, are deeply opposed and are going to voice it. It doesn't speak for the 85 per cent of the population who haven't signed that petition, and that is absolutely vital—really, really important.
The last thing I'm going to say, Llywydd—I know I'm out of time, and this is the problem with the shortness of this debate—is that I'm going to stand with that man over there, I'm going to stand with our Deputy Minister. I think this motion of no confidence needs to be chucked out, and I think we need to treat him with respect for everything he has done standing up for the people of Wales and fronting up on this issue.

Delyth Jewell AC: Politics demands better of us than this. I am an optimist, Llywydd, and I still live in the hope that the Conservatives will turn their back on this path of populism, which harms us all, because politics demands better. There have been real problems with how the 20 mph policy has been implemented. That's why we in Plaid Cymru tabled an amendment to a motion a few weeks ago, which reiterated the need for continual reviews of how the policy is being rolled out, with the need to empower communities, to make resources readily available for councils to make exemptions to the policy on those roads where 20 mph doesn't make sense. It is a shame that the Tories decided not to support that amendment, not to try to make this policy better, not to try to give voice to communities, but they instead decided to chase the headlines and to tell untruths in the way that they have done it.
There is more that needs to be done—I think quickly—to address the frustration that is felt truly by lots of people. I think it would be helpful if the First Minister could write to councils to remind them, perhaps, of the powers they have to make exemptions for those roads where 20 mph doesn't make sense, just as one example. More needs to be done to reassure people, to empower people, to listen, but there is a difference between a policy and a person. This is a cynical motion. It is an ugly tactic. It is intended not to improve things but to whip up people's anger and direct it at one man. It is shameful, reckless and potentially dangerous behaviour.
I would caution—please—the Conservatives to think on the consequences of what they do. There are consequences to our words. The abuse suffered by many Members of this place is no game; its effect is real. Ministers should be held accountable for their decisions, so should Members, but nobody in public life should live in fear that the decisions they make on policies in the public interest could attract threats. There are consequences to acting in this way, to the kind of messaging that's gone out. I'd remind the Conservatives that this policy is one that many of their own Members of the Senedd supported in 2020. We can have disagreements on policy, but personalising politics in this way is courting something perilous and politics demands better of us. I'd urge Conservative Members to look to their consciences and ask themselves if this is really who they are, if this is really a tactic they support.

Tom Giffard AS: Today's debate comes at a critical time, a moment without precedent in the history of our democracy. It's important that when the public send us a message, as they've done so clearly with this petition, we listen to what they have to say. Instead, we've seen a Labour Party with its head buried so far in the sand, it can't hear the public outcry on this issue. Never before in Wales, or indeed in the whole United Kingdom, have such a large proportion of the electorate signed a petition to overturn a policy brought forward by a Government. Indeed, that figure stands roughly at the same level as the number of people who voted for the party in Government at the last Senedd elections. The scale of this petition is so massive that if it was a UK-wide petition on a general election turnout, it would have garnered nearly 14 million signatures. That's the scale of the opposition to this Minister's policy, which has become one of the biggest unfolding disasters in the history of British policy making. And it lies squarely, I'm afraid, at the Deputy Minister's door—and it is this Minister's policy, one drawn up by this Minister in Cardiff Bay, implemented on the whole country, and one brought about as the product of a closed-door system where politicians only engage with activists and groups who agree with them and from which the public at large are ignored. And it's a policy that has self-destructed upon contact with reality. That isn't the way a democracy should be run, because the reason people have signed this petition is not just because of the default 20 mph policy; it's because they know that this Labour Government and this Minister are pursuing a wider war on motorists. The No. 1 job of a transport Minister should be to help transport us around the country. It's simple—it's in the job title. And thanks to his war on motorists, he completely failed to do that. Default 20 mph speed limits, a ban on road building, cancelling the M4 relief road project, plans for road charges, potential ULEZ-style fees to enter cities—[Interruption.] No, thank you. People across Wales—[Interruption.] No, thank you, Joyce. People across Wales will be wondering—[Interruption.]

That's a 'no', Joyce.

Tom Giffard AS: —exactly what Labour's problem with drivers is. And in turn, his policies have ensured that public transport is more difficult too. He's cut bus subsidies, leading to the cancellation of services, and now bus companies have come out to say that they're cutting back on routes that they can offer because of the difficulties caused to them by his default 20 mph scheme. So, Llywydd, a transport Minister pursuing policies that make it more difficult to get around is a transport Minister that has failed in his job. We, on these benches, have lost confidence in him. It's clear the people of Wales have lost confidence in him. So, now it's time for the Senedd to vote to say that we have no confidence in him either.

Mike Hedges AC: The first thing I'd like to say is that the Conservatives think this is so important, as my friend Alun Davies just said, it's a 30-minute debate. I assume you're going to give it slightly longer than that, and I hope you do, but it is ridiculous that you think, 'This is the most important issue in Wales at the moment—30 minutes is quite sufficient.' [Interruption.] I can't, because you've cut the time I've got down to three minutes.
Addressing the policy, a number of people have contacted me, and I say to them, 'Do you want the speed on the road you live on to increase to 30 mph?' Almost without exception, they've said, 'You cannot increase it to 30 mph on this road—it would not be safe.' A default limit of 20 mph should not be a problem. It has only become a problem because of the highly restrictive guidance from the Welsh Government. A simple way out of this is to remove the guidance and let local authority highway departments, who know the area and the roads, to decide the speed limit on each road. Most will remain at 20 mph, but—[Interruption.] I can't. Some will return to 30 mph. If residents disagree with the local authority, then the support of 75 per cent of residents living on that road to increase the speed limit would be needed to move it back. I do not expect that to be used very often, if at all.
This is what happened when we moved from 30 mph to 20 mph. Remember all those 20 mph zones we used to have, which seem to be forgotten in this discussion? A number of areas were at 20 mph—huge areas. I mean, anybody who knows Swansea—maybe some of the regional Members from the Conservative Party might—you go into areas like Manselton and almost two thirds of the roads there are 20 mph. There are others, like Plasmarl, where they're not 20 mph but they certainly need to be.
Councils have got around the 30 mph by introducing road humps, chicanes, direction priority on roads, where they're narrowed to slow down traffic—a whole range of activities to slow the traffic down to 20 mph because they didn't have a 20 mph limit. On most estate roads and roads in areas of terraced housing with parking on both sides of the road, roads become effectively single lanes with passing points in between the parked cars. I assume that Tom Giffard knows Prescelli Road where his grandfather lived. Do you honestly think it's safe to drive down Prescelli Road at 30 mph?

Tom Giffard AS: Can I make an intervention?

Mike Hedges AC: Yes.

Tom Giffard AS: Can you explain to me, then, Mike, why the Swansea Council website says, and I quote:
'Councils have very limited discretion to maintain a number of urban roads at 30mph'.
That's from a Labour-run council saying that the discretion is limited.

Mike Hedges AC: One of the great things about making a speech here is that people don't pay any attention to what you've said. I said, 'Give full discretion to the councils' in the first few words I said.
But can I just say this? This is serious. There are number of people who are being enthused by the Conservatives, who want speed limits abolished. To quote, 'I am an experienced driver. I drive to the road conditions. I do not want any speed limit.’ Do the Conservatives agree with those people? Do they agree with the petition that is calling for the removal of all 20 mph on all roads? Do they agree with those who want the removal of all traffic-calming measures, because they slow traffic down? Finally, it's a fundamentally good policy, which has not provided enough opportunities for councils to use their local knowledge to set speed limits. If that happens, it will be put to bed and it will work very well.

Jane Dodds AS: I shall keep my contribution brief. Debates such as these remain a really poor way to do politics. This place is much better than that. Debates such as these personalise politics and make political life even more difficult for us as Members. We must all be aware of our comments, those snide little remarks, which really get at us, and really don't make us feel like we want to be part of this. We must be cautious that the Senedd is not seen to validate and embolden some voices in the public sphere to continue and to grow in their harassment and haranguing of representatives. The people of Wales chose us to work together, not against each other. Our focus should be on sharing our vision, our values, and solutions. That's what politics is about. Out time is finite and precious. Let us devote it to the hard work of governance. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Laura Anne Jones AC: This legislation has provoked widespread anger, chaos and confusion right across Wales. May I be so bold as to say that not one Member here is against looking into road safety? Not one of us would vote against 20 mph outside schools or hospitals. The non-binding Member debate that I voted in four years ago was based on the limited evidence we had before us and therefore called for more evidence to be gathered on introducing more 20 mph in residential areas. It was not a vote on the Welsh Government's default, blanket 20 mph approach, and instead was intended to gather evidence and see what the impact of this would be in reality. [Interruption.] As the Member knows—. There's no need for me to take that intervention. The important and binding vote, Alun, as you know, was on the regulations of the traffic order—[Interruption.]

Laura-Anne Jones is not taking an intervention.

Laura Anne Jones AC: I'll take the intervention.

Okay, she is taking the intervention.

Alun Davies AC: You've very kind. Thank you, Laura. I think you're being very generous with your recollection there, because my memory of you is holding up a sign saying ’20’s plenty in Usk’, where your children live. Why isn't it good enough for where my children live?

Laura Anne Jones AC: I'm awfully sorry, but I didn't do that.
The important and binding vote, as you know, on those regulations was the traffic order—[Interruption.] I did not—brought forward in this Senedd in July 2022, which I voted against. Already we're seeing this legislation penalising motorists, increasing the time it takes to get to work, to visit relatives, to go to hospital appointments. Even though these concerns were previously raised with you, Deputy Minister, you carried on your blinkered approach to the roll-out of the 20 mph speed limit across Wales, the arrogance of which is bewildering.
Since the 20 mph blanket approach has come into affect, we are seeing more congestion on roads, arguably more pollution, and people in their cars for longer times—for longer, in reality, than you have suggested. Yesterday, protesters outside the Senedd and constituents told me that, on average, their journeys have extended by 15 to 45 minutes. This has caused huge frustration, and has a direct impact on getting to work, childcare and appointments. And councils’ hands are tied due to the restrictions on them to allow more roads to go back to 30 mph. The guidance for exemption is too rigid. So, it's disingenuous to say that they have a choice, like you imply that they do.
And to make matters worse, this is being rolled out during a cost-of-living crisis when we see health and education budgets cut. Yet this 20 mph roll-out seems to be the priority of this Government. You seem intent on making lives harder rather than easier. Your priorities are no longer aligned with the people of Wales. This is clearly a tired Government with lazy, ill-though-out and blinkered policy, with excruciatingly bad delivery. Seeing 30 mph and 20 mph signs within a metre of each other beggars belief, as do 20 mph signs going up large hills. Deputy Minister, you don't heed any advice. It makes for bad policy, bad delivery and, as a result, a bad reaction from the public—nearly half a million people in Wales feeling strongly enough to sign a petition that will no doubt, as other Members have said, continue to grow. Everyone here wants to see road safety improve, but this isn't the way to go about it, and you should be ashamed of the belligerent approach to ramming this policy through and not taking into account those practical concerns over the last four years for Welsh motorists. And the impact on them has been great, when you offer no proper alternative for them. That is the concern.
As the Member for Caerphilly said, you have done a lot of media on it, but you have failed to convince the public and take them with you on this policy—[Interruption.]

Just for clarity—and just to help you, Laura Anne Jones, because people are calling you out of time—the Member is not out of time; she took an intervention. I extend time when Members take interventions. Laura Anne Jones.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. As the—

But now you are out of time because I intervened on you, so, yes. [Laughter.]

Laura Anne Jones AC: Can I just finish my last sentence?

Yes, finish your point. Finish your point.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you. As the Member for Caerphilly said earlier, you have taken a lot of media, Minister, but you have failed to convince the public and take them with you with this policy, therefore you do need to remove, rescind this policy or resign.

John Griffiths AC: Llywydd, the default 20 mph speed limit in residential areas is an important policy, primarily for road safety, and the petition to the Seneddand, indeed, other expressions of concern are significant, and there should be action in response. As with other Members, I have received a high number of e-mails on these issues, Llywydd, and many of them understand that a car striking a child or older person at 30 mph is more likely to cause death or serious injury than a car travelling at 20 mph. People readily understand that, and they understand that stopping times and distances are very different too. And they support the policy on what they describe as the appropriate roads. That's been a general theme in many of the contacts that I've had. And the key, of course, is deciding which roads are appropriate.
So, I believe, Llywydd, the right response at this time is to carefully monitor the roads that we now have at 20 mph, with local residents, and to be clear about the process that's involved in that monitoring and review, and how changes can be made. Because we know that some 20 mph roads should be restored to 30 mph, and we have to decide which roads those are in conjunction with local residents. Janet.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. I would like to actually agree with a lot of what you've said here today as well—the point being 'where it's appropriate'. And I've said before that I successfully managed to get two roads taken down to 20 mph. It was quite problematic, hence why, when we thought it was for appropriateness and road safety issues, at the very beginning, in terms of principle for going out to consultation, we supported it. My question to you, and it's through you, because I have asked the Deputy Minister, and in view of the fact that we've got so much opposition—440,000—will you ask him to, at the very least, send stronger guidelines out to local authorities, because even in my own local authority, councillors are telling me that they can't understand the criteria that the Deputy Minister has set out? So, it is a flawed—[Interruption.]

Okay, okay. I think John Griffiths has understood the intervention.

John Griffiths AC: Yes, I hope I get plenty of—

Yes, you will, John Griffiths. I was watching the clock.

John Griffiths AC: —additional time for that intevention.

Yes, I know.

John Griffiths AC: The Deputy Minister, Janet, has addressed these issues and, you know, the guidance is there for local authorities, but I accept that perhaps we need to make sure that there's a more consistent approach across Wales, and I think that can be part of the monitoring, working with local residents, and the necessary changes that are made.
What I really want to say as well, Llywydd, is, as I say, there are issues, the petition has a lot of signatures. We need to respond, and I believe the best way to do that is as I've mentioned. But I would really like to agree with others who have called out the shabby way, the disgraceful way, that the Welsh Conservatives have approached these issues and sought to make political capital out of these issues. And the atmosphere it creates, the febrile atmosphere, has resulted in some of the social media posts, some of the intimidation and threats. Because it's true, isn't it, that if you create an atmosphere of that sort, you are not aware of how far other people will take it. And I think all of us need to bear that in mind, in terms of what we do and say from this point forward—spreading misinformation, which distorts the debate, trying to pretend that all roads are going to be 20 mph. And I've had e-mails telling me that, and I believe that comes from the misinformation that the Welsh Tories have spread and have continually repeated. It does a great disservice to our new post-devolution democracy in Wales, Llywydd. And when people worry, other Members worry, about the direction of travel, we should all be worried about that.
Can I say, Llywydd, that what is the most important thing is that this is the right policy. Of course, any new policy needs to be monitored and changed. It's the right policy, Llywydd—it's right for road safety, it's right to have more of our roads at 20 mph than was previously the case under the old default 30 mph system, and, today, it's right that we stand against the attempts to personalise the debate. It's not about Lee Waters, the Deputy Minister for transport; it's about a Welsh Labour manifesto commitment, it's about the programme for government. We should back and we will back the Deputy Minister for transport today.

Adam Price AC: The political has become personal in the wrong way in this motion. But, for me, at the heart of this policy, the personal and political are tightly intertwined. It's 51 years ago since, one Sunday morning, I crawled into my parents' bed, only to be told something as a four-year-old I could hardly fathom. My cousin Malcolm, just a year older, had gone to be with God. The night before, his parents, Agnes and Len, were sat on the bus in Llandybie, waiting to go to Ammanford to meet my parents at the miners welfare. Malcolm bach was safely across the road with our grandmother. But in a split second, he decided he wanted to say one last goodnight. So, he ran across the road to the bus stop, waving and smiling, until a car overtaking the stationary bus stopped him in his tracks, while his mother and father watched. He died in their arms. It was his last goodbye.
And in that instant, their world, our world, and that of the family of the entirely innocent driver, became darker and smaller forever. Can we say for certain that, if the speed limit had been 20 mph on that stretch of Blaenau Road that night, my cousin would have been alive today? No. But we can certainly say the chances would have been very significantly higher. This policy will certainly save some lives. The only uncertainty is how many. So, I am proud to have voted in favour of it. I'm proud that it was included in our manifesto.
In preparation for this debate, I went on a personal pilgrimage yesterday, to the spot where Malcolm died. I saw the new 20 mph sign 100 yd or so away. It had already been daubed with paint. And I thought to myself, what have we become when the sincere, decent, principled attempt to save the lives of children and others is a catalyst for so much anger and hate? I absolutely respect those who have come to different conclusions and expressed that in a civilised and reasonable way, as in the case of the petition, and the many conversations that I've had with constituents.
The Government has done the right thing with this policy, but that's not to say that they've done everything right, and listening and empathy and reflexivity are vital steps in any democratic process. So let's make the process, as John was saying, of making exceptions as simple and as accessible and as clear and consistent as possible. But the Minister has been clear and consistent about the policy he was proposing. He based it not on lies, but on evidence. He has stuck to his principles, sometimes against the most vicious and venomous personal opposition. Far from breaching the ministerial code, he has been the very embodiment of the principles of integrity at its heart. We need more of this honesty and courage in our politics, not less, and we need to learn to disagree, with civility and respect. [Applause.]

Joyce Watson AC: I want to pick up where Adam Price has just finished, and pay tribute to him telling that story, because that must have been really difficult. But it brings home why we're here, and I think why we're here is to try and save the lives of those who might be otherwise be lost, to prevent the tragedies that you've just described, that affect everybody, and also to pay tribute to the Minister who has driven this forward in a way that he has, at every juncture, answered all the questions that have been asked of him.
Now, we all know, and I'm old enough to remember, that we've had many changes of policy in terms of cars. We had the seat belts, and I remember people saying they weren't going to put them on. In fact, I refused to take my car away from the parking space that it was in when someone said they weren't going to put their seat belt on, and I said, 'Well, you can get out of the car'. I remember the same debate when we asked people to wear crash helmets when they were driving motorbikes. I remember—and I am old enough, just, to remember—the breathalyser coming in. I wonder how many people here, right now, would want to drive on a road where somebody was drunk but they were licensed to do that? So, yes, we have to look at where we are. Yes, we will listen to those voices when people say, you know, 'This needs amending', and the Minister's made it more than clear that he's prepared to do that.
I drove from Haverfordwest to Aberystwyth yesterday, and I calculated the extra time that it took me, and it took me all of two minutes more. I just wonder where that quote came from when you said somebody had 45 minutes added? They must have gone round Wales twice, I think. But, you know, that's another matter. The important point here is we have all received abuse because of the way that this has been put out by the leader of the opposition, and he has kept repeating that it is a blanket 20 mph. But not satisfied with just saying, 'It's a blanket 20 mph' which it isn't, he's aligned that to other policies as well, and conjoined them. And I've been watching your Twitter, and it is appalling. And I really think there are issues about your particular Twitter that the standards commissioner ought to start looking at, because the hatred—and, as somebody said earlier, you don't know where—

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: Will you take an intervention?

Joyce Watson AC: I'm out of time. You don't know, when you start something, where it's going to end. So, you need to start thinking about that. I will definitely be supporting the Minister, and I hope that you will start backing off with your vitriol.

The Deputy Minister now to contribute—Lee Waters.

Lee Waters AC: Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. I recognise the strengthof feeling that is against the change in the speed limit. The number of people who've signed the Senedd petition speaks for itself, and we certainly take it seriously. I understand that lots of people are angry and frustrated. My message to the more than 400,000 people who have signed the petition is simple: we are listening to what you're saying, we understand that not everybody likes this, and we are willing to be flexible in how this is implemented in your local community.

Lee Waters AC: But, Llywydd, this is the biggest change in the rules of the road since wearing seat belts became compulsory in 1983. That, too, was highly controversial and strongly resisted. Many people found it hard to adjust, but it became accepted, and nobody has suggested we should go back. And that's what happened in areas in this country and right across Europe that have dropped the speed limit, too. Nobody wants to go back, and we don't want to go back either. On streets where people and traffic mix, the evidence is very clear—that 20 mph saves lives and cuts casualties. And, yes, there is opposition, but there's plenty of support, too. But we will be flexible in how it's implemented, and we will continue to work with local authorities to get it right. I'm very pleased that the early and emerging traffic data from the first week signals that people are supporting the change by slowing down. The data so far shows that the average delay to journey times is less than one minute, as we expected. Now, I know that's not everyone's experience, I fully acknowledge that, but that's what the anonymised satellite navigation data that we've had so far is showing. It's also encouraging that both Tesco and Sainsbury's have said in the past few days that they are not planning to change delivery patterns or increase charges for customers in Wales. So, 10 days on and the signs are promising that the change is already bedding in, but they say it takes 28 days to change a habit, so we need to give this time.
Llywydd, the debate has shifted. There now seems to be a broad agreement that 20 mph is the right speed outside schools, health settings and residential areas. That wasn't the case four years ago. And let's be clear what our guidance actually says: on roads that are within 100m of an educational setting, a community centre, a hospital, or close to shops and homes, 20 mph is the right speed. That is a sensible guiding rule. But, of course, for every rule, there is an exception. For example, if a road passes the back of houses and there aren't people crossing, then I'd expect that to stay at 30 mph. So, we need to apply common sense, and councils are able to make those decisions. As the guidance says, and I quote, it's worth reading,
'highway authorities continue to have the flexibility to set local speed limits that are right for individual roads, reflecting local needs and considerations.'
That's what it says.
'Where their decision deviates from the guidance highway authorities should have a clear and reasoned case.'
And right across Wales, councils have already used those powers to make exceptions ahead of the roll-out on 17 September. They've exercised their ability to keep some roads at 30 mph, which is why this is not a blanket policy, because there are roads kept at 30 mph. They have the powers to make those changes, and those powers remain with them to use in the light of experience. They can make changes.
Now, to be fair to councils, they are in a difficult position. The research tells us people want lower speeds on the streets they live on, but they are less keen on lowering the speeds on the roads they drive on. In fact, when councils have decided to keep some streets at 30 mph, the people living on them have objected. So, it is very difficult to get the balance right, but we will work with local authorities to help get it right. It was never going to be perfect on day one. This needs a process of iteration and change.
I'd like to thank councils, who are already hard-pressed, for the work that they have done in the run-up to 17 September—it's been a huge amount of work—and the work that they continue to do. And together with them, we will keep a close eye on how it is going. Later this week, we will be publishing the framework for how we will monitor the changes; in January, we will publish the first set of post-implementation speed data; and by the summer, we will publish the first detailed results for the first six months of the limit being in force. Then there will be further formal monitoring on an annual basis for the next five years. We are now asking councils for feedback on their experiences so far: what's gone well, what might need to change. And, of course, we welcome scrutiny from the Senedd and its committees. We're not digging our heels in, we want to take a commonsense approach.
In parallel, we will work with councils to consider whether our exceptions guidance does need clarifying, recognising it will take time to bed in before we can draw wider conclusions. And I want to place on the record my thanks to everyone in Wales who are doing their bit to help make our communities safer. Speeds are already down and, as a result, we can expect to see fewer accidents, fewer casualties, fewer deaths, fewer tragedies. A little bit slower, Llywydd, but a whole lot better. Diolch.

Darren Millar now to reply to the debate.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer, and thank you, Minister, for the tone of the response. I have to say that the contrite way in which you responded is a marked difference in the tone that we've heard in recent weeks from you individually, Minister, and from others, and I think that the tone of the debate is better when it's like this. I was really struck by the powerful personal story that Adam Price shared about Malcolm. We have a story in our family as well, about Wendy, my cousin. She died aged five. She was hit by a bus at a crossing where there was actually a lollipop man. She was with her mum and her sister. Her mum was pushing a pram—she had a child either side with the pram—and the lollipop man gave her some confidence to lurch out into the road, and, unfortunately, it wasn't safe. It wasn't a matter of the speed of the bus, as is often the case. Sometimes, people just make mistakes, and little old Wendy, aged five, passed away just a few hours after that horrible event.
And it's those sorts of events that also make me passionate about road safety. I regularly raise road safety issues in this Chamber, regularly calling for appropriate falls in the speed limit at accident black spots or places where it makes sense, and we've discussed many of them in this Chamber today—near playgrounds, schools, hospitals, other places where you have lots of pedestrians, in particular, about. But there are places that don't suit 20 mph limits—we all know that—and some of them, unfortunately, are in place in our constituencies. And I don't think, Minister, that it's councils misinterpreting the data or not necessarily having the resources. I think local authorities have had plenty of time to get their act together and to be able to look at the guidance.
I do think there is a problem with the guidance. It is insufficiently flexible, in my view, and I would urge you not just to take many months to take stock of the implementation of this particular policy. We need some rapid decisions very quickly on our roads network in order to not impede people on their journeys from A to B where it's perfectly safe for them to be able to travel at up to 30 mph. And I say 'up to' because we all know that even in most 30 mph zones beforethis policy was implemented, frankly, it was difficult most of the time in urban areas to do 30 mph because of traffic, because of road conditions and all sorts of other reasons.
I've heard criticism of us having a no confidence vote today, Llywydd, and for the debate taking only half an hour. Can I just explain why that is the case? We're having a no confidence vote because, frankly, the attitude previously displayed by the Minister did not appear to be listening to the many hundreds of thousands of people across Wales who are very angry and upset about the policy and the way that it's been implemented.

Delyth Jewell AC: Will you take an intervention, Darren?

Darren Millar AC: I will if I'm permitted to, Llywydd.

Yes.

Delyth Jewell AC: I appreciate the tone that you're taking as well, and I'm very sorry to hear about Wendy. I think the tone of this debate has made clear where we are as a Senedd on this, and taking on board what you were saying now in terms of the Minister's tone, in terms of the stories that have been shared, you have it in your power now to withdraw this motion, not to put it to a vote because—. I'm not—. I hope that you'll accept this, Darren—I'm not saying this to make a party political point. I am frightened about the effect that some of this could have on our politics. I'm imploring you, please, not to push this to a vote.

Darren Millar AC: I won't be withdrawing the motion from being voted upon, because I think the people of Wales expect us to be able to reflect the views that are being reflected to us by our constituents, and it's our duty. I believe we've got an obligation to be able to have this debate today, given the fact that many of our constituents, including many in your own constituency and the area that you represent, Delyth, do not have confidence that this is the right Minister in the right place at the right time.
The other thing I will say is there was a reason we tabled only a half-hour debate, and that’s because we’ve had many debates already in the Senedd on the subject of 20 mph zones. In fact, we held one just two weeks ago—an hour’s worth of debate on the whole subject. We were rather wanting to focus on the issue of whether this Senedd and whether the people of Wales have confidence in the Minister to be able to do the job.
And I would remind everybody in this Chamber that under the recall—. Alun Davies raised the need for a recall mechanism for future Senedd Members post 2026, and I agree with him, by the way; we need to try and find a way that people can be recalled. If this petition were a recall petition, and if there was a facility to recall, then having 15 per cent of the population of Wales having signed it is more than sufficient to be able to have a recall type of event. So, I just want to remind people of that.
And to this assertion that we don’t have a blanket approach—[Interruption.] I can’t, I’m afraid. I’ve already indulged the Presiding Officer—unless you allow me to take it.

I will allow you to take the intervention, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar AC: I'll happily take it.

Joyce Watson AC: Some facts—and I know that you might find this difficult, but facts and reality. What you've just said is not right. It's factually incorrect, okay? If there was a recall process, first of all you'd have to be registered to vote in the constituency, and then you'd have to reach the threshold of the voters within that constituency. Now, I know you find it hard to realise that there are facts, but I just wanted to remind you.

Darren Millar AC: I am familiar with the rules and they are only for UK parliamentary elections, and it's a threshold of 10 per cent of the registered voters in that constituency. I'm simply making a point, so if you'll just allow me to continue, and then I'll conclude. There's obviously a lot of upset about some of the language that's been used, and one thing I will agree with everybody on is the sort of abuse that all of us have been exposed to on this issue—and I have to say, you want to see the abuse that's been directed towards me and the leader of the opposition, and all of us on these benches, for the points that's we've taken, including from some individuals on your benches. But this assertion that it's not a blanket policy, frankly, is hogwash. Ninety-seven per cent of the 30 mph roads that were in place before this limit was introduced have been changed to 20 mph routes. That, to me, and to most people across Wales, looks like a blanket decision.
Anyway, I want to conclude by saying this: we do not table motions of no confidence lightly. We have done so—[Interruption.] We have done so given the extraordinary scale, the unprecedented scale, of the record-breaking petition that we've seen in Wales in recent weeks, which has demonstrated that there is overwhelming public opposition to this particular policy. The failure of the Government to act swiftly enough, and the Minister to act swiftly enough, I’m afraid shows that they’re not fit to be in that position, and that’s why I urge everybody to vote for the motion.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there are objections. We will therefore defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

10. Voting Time

That brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, we will move directly to our first vote, which will be on item 6, the Member debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv) on full devolution of water. I call for a vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Rhys ab Owen. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 43, three abstentions, 12 against. And therefore, the motion is is agreed.

Item 6. Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv) - Full devolution of water. Motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Rhys ab Owen: For: 43, Against: 12, Abstain: 3
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next vote will be on the Welsh Conservatives debate on community assets, and I call for a vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. The vote is tied, and therefore I exercise my casting vote against the motion. And therefore, the result is in favour 29, no abstentions, and 30 against. And therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Item 8. Welsh Conservatives Debate - Community assets. Motion without amendment: For: 29, Against: 29, Abstain: 0
As there was an equality of votes, the Llywydd used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

The next vote is on amendment 1. Open the vote on amendment 1 in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 42, no abstentions, and 16 against. And therefore, the amendment is agreed.

Item 8. Welsh Conservatives Debate - Community assets. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths: For: 42, Against: 16, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

We will now move to a vote on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM8361as amended:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Recognises that community assets act as local hubs and provide important access to information, services, skills and social experiences.
2. Further recognises community assets improve community cohesion and allow local communities to take control of shaping the area they live in.
3. Notes Audit Wales’s community resilience and self-reliance report which outlines that local authorities find it difficult to empower people and communities to be more self-reliant and less dependent on services.
4. Welcomes the Welsh Government’s long-standing commitment to:
a) protect community assets by enabling local people to run and expand facilities that benefit the local community;
b) recognise, promote and share best practice across the public sector through Ystadau Cymru; and
c) establishing a Community Assets Commission with a remit to further stimulate innovative thinking on community ownership of land and assets in Wales.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 58, no abstentions, and none against. And therefore, the motion is agreed.

Item 8. Welsh Conservatives Debate - Community assets. Motion as amended: For: 58, Against: 0, Abstain: 0
Motion as amended has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next vote is on item 9, the Welsh Conservatives debate on the Deputy Minister for Climate Change. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 16, no abstentions, 42 against. And therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Item 9. Welsh Conservatives Debate - Deputy Minister for Climate Change: For: 16, Against: 42, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

And that concludes voting for this afternoon.

11. Short Debate: Navigating Wales's Brain Drain: Challenges and Solutions

We have one remaining item of business, which is the short debate. And I call on Luke Fletcher to speak on the topic that he has chosen.

If Members can leave the Chamber quietly—we haven't concluded business as yet—and I'll ask Luke Fletcher to start his short debate.

Luke Fletcher AS: Diolch, Llywydd. And I've agreed to give a minute of time to Adam Price, Peredur Owen Griffiths and Sam Kurtz as well. I think it's very difficult to deny that younger people are today worse off than their parents and grandparents were at the same point in their lives, and there are a number of reasons for this. It's too expensive to buy a house. On average, it takes 19 years to save for a deposit today, compared to just three years in the 1980s. Rent is unaffordable for many, especially for those of us working in the ever-increasing gig economy, where job insecurity, workplace conditions and benefits are non-existent. Higher education now comes with a price tag, leading to graduates with £50,000 of debt and few job prospects in their chosen fields. And of course, the 2008 recession, the pandemic and now the cost-of-living crisis are hitting, and have hit jobs predominantly occupied by the under-30s. So, it's no wonder that people are looking for a better life elsewhere.

Luke Fletcher AS: But the migration of young people out of our communities and out of Wales has been a long-standing problem and one that countless policy makers before me have attempted to grapple with. I've mentioned here before a policy document published 52 years ago in 1971, 'A Strategy for Rural Wales'. In that document, the need to address the out-migration of young people from rural Wales was discussed. Fast forward to within my lifetime, in 2017, Adam Price raised his concerns. At the time, Wales was tenth out of the 12 UK regions in terms of the extent of graduate loss—something I know he wants to touch on in this debate. We see that illustrated now in the estimated 75 per cent of medical students in Wales crossing the border to work in England, rather than stay in Wales. We see it with the targeted ads at not just Welsh students, but students across the UK, by the Australian and New Zealand Governments promoting the life you could potentially have there. And to be fair, you can't blame people for looking at Australia as a potential place to go—you could do a shift in your chosen sector and at the end of it, within 10 minutes, you can be on the beach with a bottle of beer in your hand and the sun beating down. I was looking to go to New Zealand myself at one point, and I'm sure there are plenty of people here who wish I had, but seeing what it had to offer was enough to entice me to at least start the immigration process. Evidently, I never completed it.
Now, at this point, I think it's important to highlight the gap in data that we have when it comes to mapping the migration of young people. We rely on the once-a-decade census, NHS patient data and graduate surveys to give us a picture of who moves and where to. And there is even less learner destination data or research telling us why they move. Whilst data does exist for internal migration, which shows that we are, roughly, losing, on average, 23,000 young people a year to the rest of the UK, no data exists for external migration to the rest of the world, nor for local authority to local authority migration. If we are to even begin to resolve this issue, then we need the data so as to understand the trends.
Now, there are a number of things we can do to at least begin to stem migration, and I will caveat this by saying that I don't think we will stop people from migrating altogether, and I will touch on that a bit later. The Scottish Government commissioned work into researching the factors that influence migration and there are a number of recommendations that we can learn from there, especially given that migration figures are seemingly reversing in Scotland. The ones I think will be of interest to us are financial in the first instance, and Gerry Holtham has also touched on the need for financial incentives in an article he wrote for the Institute of Welsh Affairs. Holtham set out some recommendations that I think need to be explored by Government further: for example, tertiary education at Welsh colleges and universities should be free of all fees for students who remain and work in Wales for five years after graduation; half of the fees should be forgiven after three years; any young person under 30 moving to Wales to take up a job should get a full rebate of their first year's Welsh income tax up to a ceiling, but the rebate to be credited and paid over three years if they remain employed in Wales; and existing student debt would be commuted for young people starting a business in Wales and a dedicated fund and mentoring service set up for them.
Llywydd, I mentioned earlier that I don't think we can stem the flow of young people out of Wales or from our rural communities entirely, so I'll come back to this. The reality for many is that they either want to escape their parents, they want more independence, or they simply want to live in an area where there's more going on and more opportunities. And in those cases, the bright lights of cities are always hard to resist. Whilst procrastinating when I was in the process of writing this speech, I was scrolling through social media, like a lot of us probably do when we're procrastinating, and it actually dawned on me that my timeline was full of people living outside of Wales. I started to note the numbers and I can name roughly 20 people alone who no longer live in Wales from my friendship groups. Some were in Australia, some in New Zealand, some in America and some across the border in England. Now, on a purely selfish basis, that's pretty good for me. I can potentially find some accommodation when I go to visit these places, but it definitely gives me a reason to visit these places as well. These are talented people that have so far been lost to our economy, but they aren't lost for ever. So, a question we also must ask ourselves is: how do we encourage people to come back home?

Luke Fletcher AS: Plaid Cymru have set out the need for a strategy highlighting tai, gwaith, iaith as the potential building blocks for one. Let's explore this further. Let's start with tai, housing. The average house price currently sits at nine to 10 times average earnings. The last time houses were as expensive was in the year 1876, nearly 150 years ago. This, of course, is an average for the UK as a whole. That figure changes, for the worse, when you look at some of the second home hotspots across Wales. So, a key part of not just encouraging people back, but keeping them here as well, is to first make sure they can afford to come back or stay in the first instance. Now, there is a lot being done via the co-operation agreement to address the plight of second homes, but we need to step up the game further through mass social housing building projects as one way to begin to reduce house prices, as well as looking at rent caps for renters.
Turning togwaith, it's fairly straightforward: there need to be well-paying jobs with good workplace conditions. How do we do this? Well, I think there are two particular points we should explore. Firstly, the role of the development bank in investing in homegrown ideas and developing sectors of the economy, which not only includes investing in Welsh small and medium-sized enterprises and entrepreneurs, but seriously investing in the co-operative economy at scale. I want to see large-scale co-operative projects that not only match what's happened through Mondragonin the Basque Country, but go further again. I think there's a very clear narrative to take here that can be appealing to young people. Why not set up a co-operative with your mates and Welsh Government will back you?
Secondly, and I think this reflects the importance of the point I made earlier in relation to learner destination data, we need to massively improve how we keep in touch with people who have moved from Wales to elsewhere. I think the story that shows the potential of this for me was the news during the summer of Rocket Science games, the company that has worked on FortniteandCall of Duty, setting up its European headquarters here in Cardiff. Their co-founder is a boy from Bridgend who dreamt of working in the gaming sector. He left Wales because the sector doesn't exist to the level he wanted to go to; now he's come back. There are a large number of people who have done the same.
Now, I'm not advocating that we go into a huge foreign direct investment drive. What I think would be far more beneficial and sustainable is for the Government to contact those who have left Wales to gain experiences in sectors either that don't exist here or where sectorial expertise is lacking, where they've made it to the top of their field, and encourage them to come back through saying to them, 'You've gained world-class experience. Why don't you bring that experience back? Set up your own firm here in Wales, and we'll back you; in turn, we'll get the money back through shares in the company you set up on our terms.' An entrepreneurial state in action, I would argue, and a plan that will bring sectoral expertise where we don't have it and help build our economy in a sustainable way.
Finally, and to be fair, anecdotally, of the people I know who are returning home, it seems to me that the main reason for the return is a desire to raise a family: 'We'll come home and benefit from the, hopefully, free childcare that family members can support us with.' Now, we shouldn't underestimate the power of family when it comes to encouraging people back to Wales. Of course, again, through the co-operation agreement, we are implementing policies in this area. But the cornerstone of any strategy must put childcare and education at its heart, which means large-scale investment to make Wales a place where people desperately want to raise their family.
That, of course, comes alongside promoting a cultural offer. Like New Zealand and Australia, we have much to shout about here as well: stunning beaches and green spaces, a rich history of song, literature and art. Gerry Holham poses a question in one of his articles that I think sums up what I'm trying to get at here: we advertise Wales to business, why not to people as well?
Dirprwy Lywydd, in the time—Llywydd, even—Ihave had, I've tried to cover off—apologies, Llywydd, at the demotion there. I've tried to cover off a lot in this debate. I look forward to continuing the debate beyond this short debate and I look forward to the Minister's response.

Adam Price AC: Thank you, Luke Fletcher, for bringing forward this very important debate, and for the whole host of creative ideas that he has summarised in his speech. You, Llywydd, will remember Llwybro, a scheme that was implemented by Menter a Busnes, a company that I worked for, funded by the Development Board for Rural Wales, which you worked for. Sometimes, we have to go back in order to find ideas for the future.
I want to focus very briefly on the dimension, as Luke said, related to graduates and the way that we have student support policy at present that doesn't provide any incentive for people to remain or return. And truth be told, huge sums are being spent by the Welsh Government, at a time when we understand that money is very tight, that supports students to leave Wales in increasing numbers. According to the most recent figures by the Higher Education Statistics Agency, which collates these statistics, 51.4 per cent now of undergraduates from north Wales leave Wales, and 44.5 per cent is the figure in mid Wales. Of course, the implication of this is not just that they study outwith Wales, they don't return; they work outwith Wales.
The figures are clear: if you study in England, and you come from Wales, then 60 per cent of those remain in England to work. In Wales, seven times the number that leave remain. It's clear, and that's why, just to summarise, it's very interesting to see that there is concern regarding this question in Scotland, and they’re doing far, far better than us. In terms of graduates, only 13 per cent of all graduates in Scotland work outwith Scotland. The corresponding figure for Wales is 31 per cent, which is one of the largest figures for any nation worldwide.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you to Luke for bringing this important debate forward today. And as one of those persons that you mentioned, Adam, who left Wales to study for a degree—I went to university in Sheffield and studied a degree in engineering, control systems engineering as it happens—I went there, I enjoyed myself, but I also got a good degree. I made many friends, but I left there with a degree in engineering that I could then use. I was very fortunate to be able to return to Wales and I wanted to come back, but I was offered a graduate role in Wales, which meant that I was able to return. I could then bring back the skills that I'd acquired at university and could use those skills in our communities here.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: I realise that not everybody wishes to return to Wales after their degree, but I'd like this Government to place more emphasis on ensuring that there are more quality jobs for those people to come back to. Similarly, I'd like this Government to ensure that the conditions are in place for entrepreneurs to come back to Wales as well, by making Wales a more attractive place to set up a company—as you said, Luke—to make a company and to thrive. It would create much-needed jobs and contribute significantly to the Welsh economy. Minister, I'd like to hear in your response if you could share that ambition for attracting people back to Wales and to build our economy. Diolch yn fawr.

Samuel Kurtz AS: Thank you to Luke for the opportunity to speak in this short debate.

Samuel Kurtz AS: You're absolutely right, and there's a lot that I agree with, Luke, in your assessment of the situation here in Wales at the moment, and it's not only those who are the 'brain drain'—I remember hearing that phrase when I was in school, and so it's not a new phenomenon—but it's also those people who are leaving rural Wales and going to the more urban parts of Wales. We see that in my constituency as well; Swansea and Cardiff being a bit more of a hub for younger people to move towards from rural communities.
So, what I want to do in this minute is just to take the opportunity to ask the Minister if he would be willing to sit with me, given that my cross-party group on rural growth is due to launch its inquiry that it has been conducting with regards to the rural economy and rural productivity—if you would be willing to meet with me and perhaps even say a few words regarding the rural economy at the launch event on 15 November.
I know that the rural economy is a bit of an untapped resource here in Wales as an opportunity for driving prosperity forward, and with that prosperity comes the opportunity to keep people in rural parts of Wales as well. Like you, Luke, I pretty much split 50:50 between my friends who stayed local in Pembrokeshire and Carmarthenshire and those who continue to live further afield. I would have much rathered it if we had all come home and had the opportunities that I had, so that’s what I’d like to sit down with the Minister to have a discussion around and hopefully hear him speak at the cross-party launch as well. Diolch, Llywydd.

The Minister for Economy now to contribute to this debate, Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Diolch, Llywydd, and thank you to Luke for the debate, for the topic he's chosen, and for the contributions we've heard across the Chamber.
I should say that my ambition is a simple one: I want to see more jobs and better jobs across Wales; I want opportunities for businesses to start up and to grow and I want to see a continued level of foreign direct investment; I want larger companies and I want companies right across our economy. You’d expect me to say that and mention the different types. As a Labour and Co-operative Party member, I’m very keen to see more co-operative development and there are opportunities for them as we not just meet our manifesto pledge to double the size of worker-owned businesses, but renormalise co-operatives in a whole range of different sectors.
And part of what I wanted to do in resetting and refocusing the economic mission, when I took on this post, was to have an external view on where we are, what Wales looks like and where are the opportunities. That’s why we’ve commissioned Jonathan Portes to do some work, to get an honest appraisal of where we are—and he already had, not just an external perspective, but some familiarity with Wales, having done some work here already—and to be really clear about the ambition for young people to be able to plan a successful future here.
There is always going to be a challenge about why people will want to move, and, to be fair, Luke Fletcher mentioned this and recognised some of this. For young people who can go away to study and do different things, there are powerful reasons for them to want to do that, regardless of the financial incentives or support systems. I grew up in a part of the world where I didn’t want to stay to study. And my story is interesting. I grew up in south-west England; my father, who had come from—. He was born in Ogmore-by-Sea and grew up in Torfaen, and he then went away to university. He then went away to Zambia to work. He met my mother; I’m the result of that union. He wanted to come back to Wales. He eventually came back to Wales when he retired. So, Wales has always been part of our story, and I’m very pleased to be here and it’s where my family is growing up.
There are different stories about how we end up in different parts of life. What I think we want to try to do is to deliberately give people an opportunity to see the positivity of staying in Wales: if you go away to study, to do something different, to work, there's the opportunity to come back and to be successful. And not to see it as a point of national service—that you must come back regardless of opportunities. There’s a really good reason for you to want to come back. And also, as a net importer of graduates, to give people who are part of our story during a period of their study—and the student experience in almost all of our higher education institutions is a really positive one—good reasons to want to stay, wherever they’ve come from: to want to stay and to recognise that they're going to be part of the future of the country.
And actually, that is recognised by a range of people who are already looking to invest here. And I was really pleased to hear the recognition of Rocket Science. I had met the Welsh co-founder of that business on a couple of different occasions. We had talked about the work that our team of officials were already doing to look at opportunities for them to have their European headquarters here. But it was more than just the emotional pull of Wales—it was what’s on offer. And some of that is the offer from the UK itself about the environment to run your business. But on the additional support we can provide and what makes Wales interesting, he had a particular perspective on that. He was also looking at some of the figures on where we were, and, actually, the number of graduates we produce in areas that interest them is a good reason why they have chosen to come here as well. It isn’t just a choice based on sentiment—there’s actually evidence that underpins that. There are more people looking to do that as well in economic growth opportunity areas. Whether it’s renewables, semiconductors, fintech or cyber, what our higher education system provides is actually really attractive for a range of businesses to want to come here, for people to then see that there is a successful future that you can have.
We shouldn't, though, lose sight of the fact that, as well as those established and growing areas where there are lots of start-ups, lots of people will still look for public service opportunities. When I was the health Minister and we started the 'Train. Work. Live.' campaign, not everyone was entirely positive about whether it would succeed or not, but actually focusing on the different parts of people's lives—the quality of training, your respect at work, doing a job where people value what you're doing, but also the quality of life you can have, where you live and the things you can do. And we recognised that then, and it's the same for public service careers as well as private service careers, the different offer we have.
And in Wales, we actually have a really good offer, I think. You've already talked about some of the leisure opportunities, but there's more to it than that as well. And, internationally, distinct areas within larger states, nations within nations, like the Basque Country, have made their difference a point of uniqueness that is really interesting to people and to companies and that's part of what they positively offer. And that is definitely what I do when I go around different parts of not just the UK, but the wider world. And I've seen that not just in meeting Rocket Science, but when I was in Birmingham Alabama—and it's Birmingham, not Birmingham in that part of the world—where they were celebrating and recognising their history with part of Wales, but they were also interested in the ongoing part, the cultural offer; the kinship, but also the economic opportunities to do more as well. And us being different within the UK, a nation within a nation, is something that really interests other parts of the world.
Our challenge always is picking up on what Luke, Peredur, Adam and, indeed, Sam have pointed out, it's the ability to do as much of that as possible as successfully as possible. And that means we need to choose where we deploy our resources—the people we have, the money we have and the offer we make to people to be part of our story.
And I do see that as very much as what we need to do in both rural and urban Wales as well. Having everyone move from rural Wales into larger towns and cities will not give us the future we want in the country. But that does mean that, for young people to stay in a rural community, there need to be work opportunities, the opportunity to have a good life that's there. And actually it's one of the opportunities in the post-COVID world, where hybrid working is now more realistic. If we can deliver more of our digital infrastructure then, actually, the opportunity not to have to think about commuting to a single centre five days a week opens up different opportunities to live in and to gain all the benefits that can come from living in rural parts of Wales, as well as wanting to see rural development opportunities. I know the Member and I disagree on a nuclear future for Wales, but I actually think that can be a part of making sure people have a future within their local community. It's part of the reason I'm interested in Gilestone Farm and the potential proposals around that, where actually you'll give people an opportunity to live and work in a rural part of Wales as opposed to thinking you've got to move out to be able to move on.
I'm also, within that, looking at what different parts of the world have done, including Scotland—what they've done to give incentives to graduates to want to stay or to want to come back to start up and run their businesses. And I think part of this is how we project ourselves. There are challenges, yes; of course there are significant challenges and I'd never try to run away from those. I spend a good deal of time in this Chamber and, indeed, in other settings as well talking about the nature and the scale of those challenges, but there are still opportunities for the Wales we can be and want to be in the future. So, I think I'm realistic about the challenges and the scale of some of them as well.I want to carry on having that conversation, and indeed I'm expecting a formal invitation from Sam Kurtz that he's kindly set out here in the Chamber, and a continuing conversation with Members on different benches about how we look to try to do that. But I want to be positive and optimistic about what we can do.
Even in the times we will face in the year ahead and more, we will still have opportunities to make a difference. Some of those are within the co-operation agreement; there are others within the sectors I've mentioned and more. And I want people to see, in a range of areas, you can make choices and have a really good life that is economically successful in a country that is not just small, but is brilliant and has opportunities for more of us to say, 'Wales has a great story to tell.' We want the rest of the world to recognise that and be part of it.

I thank the Minister and I thank Members for their work today. That brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 18:59.

QNR

Questions to the Minister for Climate Change

Mike Hedges: What assessment has the Minister made of the number of social houses in Wales built using non-traditional methods?

Julie James: Social housing grant is provided to build new social homes and, over the last two years, 55 schemes have received funding for using non-traditional modern methods of construction. These schemes will provide over 1,400 new social homes for rent.

Hefin David: What plans does the Welsh Government have to reform the developments of national significance process as set out in the Planning (Wales) Act 2015?

Julie James: The Infrastructure (Wales) Bill was introduced into the Senedd on 12 June. Subject to receiving consent of the Senedd, the system it proposes will replace the development of national significance process for the determination of applications for large scale devolved infrastructure projects.

Buffy Williams: Will the Minister provide an update regarding the support available to local authorities for flood alleviation?

Julie James: As part of our £75 million flood programme for 2023-24, the Welsh Government has made £5.25 million revenue funding available to local authorities. We have also made £12 million capital funding available to support the development and delivery of construction works, for which local authorities can submit applications.

Questions to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language

Rhys ab Owen: What discussions has the Minister had with manufacturers and retailers about reducing the cost of school uniforms?

Jeremy Miles: We held a public consultation last October to update our statutory guidance on school uniform. We considered school uniform suppliers to be key stakeholders in school uniform policy and formally consulted with them. The new guidance published in May will support schools in reducing costs for families.

Samuel Kurtz: What action is the Welsh Government taking to support pupils with hearing impairment in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire?

Jeremy Miles: Local authorities have a statutory duty to keep a register of all pupils with a hearing impairment in their area, to ensure provision is properly planned for. Many of these pupils will also have an additional learning need and will therefore be entitled to a statutory individual development plan.

Peter Fox: Will the Minister provide an update on the implementation of the new additional learning needs system?

Jeremy Miles: The additional learning needs system is being implemented over four academic years as part of systemic reform of the education system in Wales. We are working closely with Estyn to monitor progress and an evaluation of implementation is under way.

Luke Fletcher: Has the Welsh Government made any assessment of the impact that the delay in rejoining Horizon Europe has had on the Welsh higher education sector?

Jeremy Miles: While it is not straightforward to fully quantify the impact of the delay, the exclusion of the UK from the Horizon programme has been avoidable and damaging. The Horizon programme will give Welsh universities the opportunity to join with their peers to tackle challenges faced in Wales and globally.

Questions to the Deputy Minister for Climate Change

Delyth Jewell: What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the environmental impact of major housing developments in Caerphilly County Borough?

Lee Waters: Building on the sustainable development duty, 'Planning Policy Wales' and 'Future Wales' set the framework for the planning system in Wales. Sustainable development, climate change, including green infrastructure and biodiversity, are key elements of national policy that must considered by local planning authorities when preparing development plans and determining planning applications.